Transcript:The Four Horsemen Segment 1
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- | '''Title:''' Transcript The Four Horsemen - Segment 1 | + | '''Title:''' Transcript The Four Horsemen - Segment 1 |
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+ | '''Video:''' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DKhc1pcDFM | ||
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00:06 [RD] arrogant, or vitriolic, or shrill.<br /> | 00:06 [RD] arrogant, or vitriolic, or shrill.<br /> | ||
00:10 [RD] What do we think about that?<br /> | 00:10 [RD] What do we think about that?<br /> | ||
- | 00:12 [DD] Hah! | + | 00:12 [DD] Hah! Well�<br /> |
00:13 [DD] I'm amused by it, because I went out of my way in my book<br /> | 00:13 [DD] I'm amused by it, because I went out of my way in my book<br /> | ||
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00:32 [DD] And so I made adjustments and made adjustments.<br /> | 00:32 [DD] And so I made adjustments and made adjustments.<br /> | ||
00:34 [DD] And it didn't do any good in the end because I still got hammered<br /> | 00:34 [DD] And it didn't do any good in the end because I still got hammered<br /> | ||
- | 00:37 [DD] for being | + | 00:37 [DD] for being � for being rude and aggressive.<br /> |
00:40 [DD] And I came to realise that it's<br /> | 00:40 [DD] And I came to realise that it's<br /> | ||
00:43 [DD] it's a no-win situation.<br /> | 00:43 [DD] it's a no-win situation.<br /> | ||
- | 00:45 [DD] It's | + | 00:45 [DD] It's � it's a �<br /> |
00:45 [DD] It's a mug's game.<br /> | 00:45 [DD] It's a mug's game.<br /> | ||
- | 00:47 [DD] The religions have | + | 00:47 [DD] The religions have � have contrived to make it impossible to disagree with them critically�.<br /> |
00:50 [SH] Hmmm.<br /> | 00:50 [SH] Hmmm.<br /> | ||
- | 00:51 [DD] | + | 00:51 [DD]�without being rude.<br /> |
00:55 [RD] Without being rude.<br /> | 00:55 [RD] Without being rude.<br /> | ||
- | 00:57 [DD] You know, they | + | 00:57 [DD] You know, they �<br /> |
00:58 [DD] they sort've play the hurt feelings card at every opportunity.<br /> | 00:58 [DD] they sort've play the hurt feelings card at every opportunity.<br /> | ||
- | 01:03 [DD] And you | + | 01:03 [DD] And you �<br /> |
01:04 [DD] you're faced with a choice of, well,<br /> | 01:04 [DD] you're faced with a choice of, well,<br /> | ||
01:07 [DD] am I gonna be rude<br /> | 01:07 [DD] am I gonna be rude<br /> | ||
01:08 [DD] or am I going to<br /> | 01:08 [DD] or am I going to<br /> | ||
- | 01:09 [RD] Say nothing at all. | + | 01:09 [RD] Say nothing at all. Yeah�<br /> |
- | 01:10 [DD] | + | 01:10 [DD] �articulate this criticism?<br /> |
01:12 [DD] I mean, am I going to articulate it, or am I just gonna button my lip?<br /> | 01:12 [DD] I mean, am I going to articulate it, or am I just gonna button my lip?<br /> | ||
01:17 [SH] Right, well, that's what it is to trespass a taboo.<br /> | 01:17 [SH] Right, well, that's what it is to trespass a taboo.<br /> | ||
- | 01:20 [SH] I think we're | + | 01:20 [SH] I think we're � we're all encountering the fact that �<br /> |
- | 01:22 [SH] that religion is | + | 01:22 [SH] that religion is � is held �<br /> |
01:25 [SH] off the table of rational criticism in some kind of formal way even by,<br /> | 01:25 [SH] off the table of rational criticism in some kind of formal way even by,<br /> | ||
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01:38 [SH] even if it's abject and causing harm.<br /> | 01:38 [SH] even if it's abject and causing harm.<br /> | ||
01:41 [SH] And don't look too closely at it.<br /> | 01:41 [SH] And don't look too closely at it.<br /> | ||
- | 01:43 [DD] Now, that was, of course, the point of the title of my book | + | 01:43 [DD] Now, that was, of course, the point of the title of my book �<br /> |
01:46 [DD] is there is this spell and we gotta break it.<br /> | 01:46 [DD] is there is this spell and we gotta break it.<br /> | ||
01:48 [CH] But if the charge of, um, offensiveness in general is to be allowed in public discourse,<br /> | 01:48 [CH] But if the charge of, um, offensiveness in general is to be allowed in public discourse,<br /> | ||
01:54 [CH] then, without self-pity, I think we should say that we, too, can be offended and insulted.<br /> | 01:54 [CH] then, without self-pity, I think we should say that we, too, can be offended and insulted.<br /> | ||
- | 01:59 [CH] I mean, I | + | 01:59 [CH] I mean, I �<br /> |
02:00 [CH] I'm not just in disagreement when someone like Tariq Ramadan,<br /> | 02:00 [CH] I'm not just in disagreement when someone like Tariq Ramadan,<br /> | ||
02:05 [CH] accepted now at the high tables of Oxford University as a spokesman,<br /> | 02:05 [CH] accepted now at the high tables of Oxford University as a spokesman,<br /> | ||
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02:11 [CH] when it comes to the stoning of women,<br /> | 02:11 [CH] when it comes to the stoning of women,<br /> | ||
02:13 [CH] is a moratorium on it.<br /> | 02:13 [CH] is a moratorium on it.<br /> | ||
- | 02:15 [CH] I find that profoundly | + | 02:15 [CH] I find that profoundly �<br /> |
02:18 [CH] much more than annoying.<br /> | 02:18 [CH] much more than annoying.<br /> | ||
- | 02:19 [SH] Right, yeah, but I think | + | 02:19 [SH] Right, yeah, but I think �<br /> |
- | 02:21 [CH] um, insulting | + | 02:21 [CH] um, insulting �<br /> |
02:21 [CH] not only insulting, but actually threatening.<br /> | 02:21 [CH] not only insulting, but actually threatening.<br /> | ||
02:24 [SH] But you're not offended.<br /> | 02:24 [SH] But you're not offended.<br /> | ||
- | 02:24 [CH] Um | + | 02:24 [CH] Um �<br /> |
- | 02:25 [SH] This is | + | 02:25 [SH] This is � you don't take any �<br /> |
02:26 [SH] I don't see you taking things personally.<br /> | 02:26 [SH] I don't see you taking things personally.<br /> | ||
- | 02:28 [SH] You're alarmed by the | + | 02:28 [SH] You're alarmed by the � the liabilities of certain ways of thinking, as is in Ramadan's case.<br /> |
02:32 [CH] Yes. But he would say, or people like him would say<br /> | 02:32 [CH] Yes. But he would say, or people like him would say<br /> | ||
02:36 [CH] that if I doubt the historicity of the prophet Muhammad, I've injured them in their deepest feelings.<br /> | 02:36 [CH] that if I doubt the historicity of the prophet Muhammad, I've injured them in their deepest feelings.<br /> | ||
02:41 [SH] Right.<br /> | 02:41 [SH] Right.<br /> | ||
- | 02:41 [CH] Well I | + | 02:41 [CH] Well I �<br /> |
- | 02:42 [CH] I am in fact | + | 02:42 [CH] I am in fact � I think all people ought to be,<br /> |
02:46 [CH] offended at least in their deepest integrity by, say,<br /> | 02:46 [CH] offended at least in their deepest integrity by, say,<br /> | ||
02:48 [CH] the religious proposition that without a supernatural, celestial dictatorship, we wouldn't know right from wrong.<br /> | 02:48 [CH] the religious proposition that without a supernatural, celestial dictatorship, we wouldn't know right from wrong.<br /> | ||
- | 02:54 [CH] That we only | + | 02:54 [CH] That we only �<br /> |
02:55 [DD] Yeah<br /> | 02:55 [DD] Yeah<br /> | ||
- | 02:55 [CH] we only live | + | 02:55 [CH] we only live by�<br /> |
02:56 [SH] But are you really offended by that?<br /> | 02:56 [SH] But are you really offended by that?<br /> | ||
02:57 [SH] Doesn't it just seem wrong with you?<br /> | 02:57 [SH] Doesn't it just seem wrong with you?<br /> | ||
- | 02:58 [CH] No. I say only, Sam, that if | + | 02:58 [CH] No. I say only, Sam, that if �<br /> |
03:00 [CH] if the offensiveness charge is to be allowed in general,<br /> | 03:00 [CH] if the offensiveness charge is to be allowed in general,<br /> | ||
03:06 [CH] and arbitrated by the media,<br /> | 03:06 [CH] and arbitrated by the media,<br /> | ||
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03:40 [RD] I'm fascinated by the contrast between the amount of offense that's taken by religion<br /> | 03:40 [RD] I'm fascinated by the contrast between the amount of offense that's taken by religion<br /> | ||
03:45 [RD] and the amount of offense that people take against<br /> | 03:45 [RD] and the amount of offense that people take against<br /> | ||
- | 03:48 [RD] many | + | 03:48 [RD] many � anything else, like artistic taste.<br /> |
03:50 [RD] Your taste in music, your taste in art.<br /> | 03:50 [RD] Your taste in music, your taste in art.<br /> | ||
03:52 [RD] Ah, your politics.<br /> | 03:52 [RD] Ah, your politics.<br /> | ||
- | 03:53 [RD] You could be | + | 03:53 [RD] You could be �<br /> |
03:54 [RD] not exactly as rude as you'd like,<br /> | 03:54 [RD] not exactly as rude as you'd like,<br /> | ||
03:56 [RD] but you could be far, far more rude about such things.<br /> | 03:56 [RD] but you could be far, far more rude about such things.<br /> | ||
03:59 [RD] And I'd quite like to try to quantify that.<br /> | 03:59 [RD] And I'd quite like to try to quantify that.<br /> | ||
- | 04:01 [RD] To actively research about it, actually | + | 04:01 [RD] To actively research about it, actually �<br /> |
04:03 [RD] test people with statements about their favourite football team,<br /> | 04:03 [RD] test people with statements about their favourite football team,<br /> | ||
04:06 [DD] Yeah<br /> | 04:06 [DD] Yeah<br /> | ||
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04:07 [DD] or their favourite piece of music or something.<br /> | 04:07 [DD] or their favourite piece of music or something.<br /> | ||
04:09 [DD] And see how far you can go, before they take offense,<br /> | 04:09 [DD] And see how far you can go, before they take offense,<br /> | ||
- | 04:12 [DD] compared to | + | 04:12 [DD] compared to �<br /> |
04:13 [DD] well, is there anything else, apart from say,<br /> | 04:13 [DD] well, is there anything else, apart from say,<br /> | ||
- | 04:16 [DD] how ugly your face is, that gives such | + | 04:16 [DD] how ugly your face is, that gives such �<br /> |
04:19 [CH] Or your husband's or wife's, or girlfriend's or partner's faces<br /> | 04:19 [CH] Or your husband's or wife's, or girlfriend's or partner's faces<br /> | ||
04:20 [RD] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes.<br /> | 04:20 [RD] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes.<br /> | ||
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04:29 [CH] and he actually is righteously upset by certain transient modern art,<br /> | 04:29 [CH] and he actually is righteously upset by certain transient modern art,<br /> | ||
04:33 [CH] which tend to draw attention to themselves by blasphemy.<br /> | 04:33 [CH] which tend to draw attention to themselves by blasphemy.<br /> | ||
- | 04:37 [CH] For example Serrano's | + | 04:37 [CH] For example Serrano's �<br /> |
04:38 [CH] Serrano's '"Piss Christ",<br /> | 04:38 [CH] Serrano's '"Piss Christ",<br /> | ||
04:39 [CH] or the elephant dung on the Virgin, and so on.<br /> | 04:39 [CH] or the elephant dung on the Virgin, and so on.<br /> | ||
- | 04:41 [CH] And indeed, I think | + | 04:41 [CH] And indeed, I think � I think it's quite important that we share,<br /> |
04:45 [CH] uh, with Sophocles and other pre-monotheists,<br /> | 04:45 [CH] uh, with Sophocles and other pre-monotheists,<br /> | ||
04:48 [CH] a revulsion to desecration or to profanity,<br /> | 04:48 [CH] a revulsion to desecration or to profanity,<br /> | ||
04:51 [CH] that we don't want to see,<br /> | 04:51 [CH] that we don't want to see,<br /> | ||
- | 04:53 [CH] um | + | 04:53 [CH] um � churches� uh � desecrated,<br /> |
04:55 [RD] No, indeed not.<br /> | 04:55 [RD] No, indeed not.<br /> | ||
04:57 [CH] or religious icons trashed, and so forth.<br /> | 04:57 [CH] or religious icons trashed, and so forth.<br /> | ||
04:57 [RD] Yes<br /> | 04:57 [RD] Yes<br /> | ||
- | 05:00 [CH] We | + | 05:00 [CH] We � we share an admiration for at least some of the aesthetic achievements of religion.<br /> |
- | 05:07 [SH] Right. I think this | + | 05:07 [SH] Right. I think this � this whole notion of �<br /> |
- | 05:09 [SH] I think our criticism is | + | 05:09 [SH] I think our criticism is �<br /> |
- | 05:11 [SH] is actually more barbed than that, in the sense that we're not | + | 05:11 [SH] is actually more barbed than that, in the sense that we're not �<br /> |
05:15 [SH] We are offending people, but we are also telling them<br /> | 05:15 [SH] We are offending people, but we are also telling them<br /> | ||
05:17 [SH] that they're wrong to be offended.<br /> | 05:17 [SH] that they're wrong to be offended.<br /> | ||
- | 05:19 [SH] I mean this is | + | 05:19 [SH] I mean this is �<br /> |
05:19 [RD] Yes!!<br /> | 05:19 [RD] Yes!!<br /> | ||
- | 05:20 [SH] Physicists don't | + | 05:20 [SH] Physicists don't �<br /> |
05:22 [SH] aren't offended when their view of physics is disproved or challenged.<br /> | 05:22 [SH] aren't offended when their view of physics is disproved or challenged.<br /> | ||
05:27 [SH] I mean, this is just not the way rational minds operate when they're really trying to get at what's true in the world.<br /> | 05:27 [SH] I mean, this is just not the way rational minds operate when they're really trying to get at what's true in the world.<br /> | ||
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05:40 [SH] and tribal, and ultimately dangerous, reflexive response to having these ideas challenged.<br /> | 05:40 [SH] and tribal, and ultimately dangerous, reflexive response to having these ideas challenged.<br /> | ||
- | 05:46 [SH] I think we're | + | 05:46 [SH] I think we're � we're pointing to the total liability of that fact.<br /> |
- | 05:51 [DD] Well, and too | + | 05:51 [DD] Well, and too �<br /> |
- | 05:52 [DD] There:s no polite way to say to somebody | + | 05:52 [DD] There:s no polite way to say to somebody �<br /> |
05:56 [SH] You've wasted your life! (<em>laughter</em>)<br /> | 05:56 [SH] You've wasted your life! (<em>laughter</em>)<br /> | ||
05:57 [DD] do you realise you've wasted your life?<br /> | 05:57 [DD] do you realise you've wasted your life?<br /> | ||
- | 05:59 [DD] | + | 05:59 [DD] Um�<br /> |
06:00 [DD] Do you realise that you've just devoted all your efforts and all your goods<br /> | 06:00 [DD] Do you realise that you've just devoted all your efforts and all your goods<br /> | ||
- | 06:04 [DD] to the | + | 06:04 [DD] to the � a glorification of something which is just a myth?<br /> |
- | 06:09 [DD] Ah | + | 06:09 [DD] Ah � or have you ever considered �<br /> |
06:12 [DD] even if you say,<br /> | 06:12 [DD] even if you say,<br /> | ||
06:13 [DD] have you even considered the possibility that maybe you've wasted your life on this?<br /> | 06:13 [DD] have you even considered the possibility that maybe you've wasted your life on this?<br /> | ||
- | 06:17 [DD] There's no | + | 06:17 [DD] There's no �<br /> |
06:18 [DD] there's no inoffensive way of saying that.<br /> | 06:18 [DD] there's no inoffensive way of saying that.<br /> | ||
06:20 [DD] But we do have to say it,<br /> | 06:20 [DD] But we do have to say it,<br /> | ||
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06:36 [RD] Have you? Yes.<br /> | 06:36 [RD] Have you? Yes.<br /> | ||
06:37 [CH] I used to have this when I was young, ongoing arguments with members of the Communist Party.<br /> | 06:37 [CH] I used to have this when I was young, ongoing arguments with members of the Communist Party.<br /> | ||
- | 06:41 [CH] They | + | 06:41 [CH] They � they sort of knew that it was all up with the Soviet Union.<br /> |
06:45 [CH] Many of them have suffered a lot, and sacrificed a great deal.<br /> | 06:45 [CH] Many of them have suffered a lot, and sacrificed a great deal.<br /> | ||
06:48 [CH] And struggled, you know, manfully to keep what they thought was the great ideal alive.<br /> | 06:48 [CH] And struggled, you know, manfully to keep what they thought was the great ideal alive.<br /> | ||
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07:06 [CH] I would've said "don't be ridiculous!"<br /> | 07:06 [CH] I would've said "don't be ridiculous!"<br /> | ||
07:09 [CH] Don't be absurd!<br /> | 07:09 [CH] Don't be absurd!<br /> | ||
- | 07:09 [CH] But it's | + | 07:09 [CH] But it's �<br /> |
- | 07:11 [CH] I find it | + | 07:11 [CH] I find it �<br /> |
07:12 [SH] in many cases almost an exactly analogous argument.<br /> | 07:12 [SH] in many cases almost an exactly analogous argument.<br /> | ||
- | 07:15 [DD] When people tell me I'mbeing rude and vicious and terribly aggressive in the way that I | + | 07:15 [DD] When people tell me I'mbeing rude and vicious and terribly aggressive in the way that I �<br /> |
07:21 [DD] I say, well if I were saying these things about the pharmaceutical industry or the oil interests, ah,<br /> | 07:21 [DD] I say, well if I were saying these things about the pharmaceutical industry or the oil interests, ah,<br /> | ||
07:29 [DD] would it be rude? Would it be off-limits? No.<br /> | 07:29 [DD] would it be rude? Would it be off-limits? No.<br /> | ||
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07:47 [DD] Yeah.<br /> | 07:47 [DD] Yeah.<br /> | ||
07:47 [RD] Yes.<br /> | 07:47 [RD] Yes.<br /> | ||
- | 07:48 [CH] And | + | 07:48 [CH] And � or in the English case, state subsidy.<br /> |
07:51 [RD] I'm curious how religion acquired this charm status that it has, compared to any of these other things.<br /> | 07:51 [RD] I'm curious how religion acquired this charm status that it has, compared to any of these other things.<br /> | ||
07:57 [RD] And somehow we've all bought into it whether we're religious or not.<br /> | 07:57 [RD] And somehow we've all bought into it whether we're religious or not.<br /> | ||
- | 08:00 [RD] And | + | 08:00 [RD] And � some historical process has lead to this immunisation of religion against, well,<br /> |
- | 08:08 [RD] this | + | 08:08 [RD] this � this hyper-offense taking that religion is allowed to take.<br /> |
08:13 [DD] And what's particular amusing to me finally -<br /> | 08:13 [DD] And what's particular amusing to me finally -<br /> | ||
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08:20 [DD] is they've managed to enlist legions of non-religious people who take offense on their behalf.<br /> | 08:20 [DD] is they've managed to enlist legions of non-religious people who take offense on their behalf.<br /> | ||
08:30 [RD] And how!<br /> | 08:30 [RD] And how!<br /> | ||
- | 08:31 [DD] In fact, the most vicious reviews of my book | + | 08:31 [DD] In fact, the most vicious reviews of my book �<br /> |
08:35 [DD] have been by people who are not themselves religious,<br /> | 08:35 [DD] have been by people who are not themselves religious,<br /> | ||
08:37 [DD] but they're terribly afraid of hurting the feelings of the people that are religious.<br /> | 08:37 [DD] but they're terribly afraid of hurting the feelings of the people that are religious.<br /> | ||
- | 08:41 [DD] And they | + | 08:41 [DD] And they � they chastise me worse than anybody who is deeply religious.<br /> |
08:45 [RD] Exactly my experience. Exactly my experience.<br /> | 08:45 [RD] Exactly my experience. Exactly my experience.<br /> | ||
- | 08:46 [SH] And I think | + | 08:46 [SH] And I think �<br /> |
08:47 [SH] So one of you pointed out how condescending that view is.<br /> | 08:47 [SH] So one of you pointed out how condescending that view is.<br /> | ||
08:50 [RD] Yes, yes.<br /> | 08:50 [RD] Yes, yes.<br /> | ||
- | 08:51 [SH] It's as if though | + | 08:51 [SH] It's as if though �<br /> |
08:52 [SH] It's like the idea of penitentiaries<br /> | 08:52 [SH] It's like the idea of penitentiaries<br /> | ||
- | 08:54 [SH] I mean, they're | + | 08:54 [SH] I mean, they're �<br /> |
08:55 [SH] other people need them,<br /> | 08:55 [SH] other people need them,<br /> | ||
08:57 [DD] That's right.<br /> | 08:57 [DD] That's right.<br /> | ||
- | 08:57 [SH] you know, that we must keep these people | + | 08:57 [SH] you know, that we must keep these people �<br /> |
08:58 [SH] safely in their myths.<br /> | 08:58 [SH] safely in their myths.<br /> | ||
09:00 [RD] Yes.<br /> | 09:00 [RD] Yes.<br /> | ||
- | 09:02 [SH] Well. I think there's one answer to that question which may illuminate a difference that | + | 09:02 [SH] Well. I think there's one answer to that question which may illuminate a difference that �<br /> |
- | 09:08 [SH] that | + | 09:08 [SH] that � or at least the difference that I have, I think, maybe with all three of you.<br /> |
- | 09:13 [SH] There's something about | + | 09:13 [SH] There's something about �<br /> |
09:15 [SH] I mean, I still use words like "spiritual" and "mystical" without furrowing my brow too much,<br /> | 09:15 [SH] I mean, I still use words like "spiritual" and "mystical" without furrowing my brow too much,<br /> | ||
09:21 [SH] and, I admit, to the consternation of many atheists,<br /> | 09:21 [SH] and, I admit, to the consternation of many atheists,<br /> | ||
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09:27 [SH] and that is only talked about without obvious qualms in religious discourse.<br /> | 09:27 [SH] and that is only talked about without obvious qualms in religious discourse.<br /> | ||
09:33 [SH] And because it's only talked about in religious discourse,<br /> | 09:33 [SH] And because it's only talked about in religious discourse,<br /> | ||
- | 09:36 [SH] it is | + | 09:36 [SH] it is � it is just riddled with superstition.<br /> |
09:39 [SH] And it's used to cash out various metaphysical schemes which it can't reasonably do.<br /> | 09:39 [SH] And it's used to cash out various metaphysical schemes which it can't reasonably do.<br /> | ||
09:45 [SH] But clearly people have extraordinary experiences.<br /> | 09:45 [SH] But clearly people have extraordinary experiences.<br /> | ||
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09:53 [SH] Or they have them because just happen to have the neurology that is .. that is particularly labile that allows for it.<br /> | 09:53 [SH] Or they have them because just happen to have the neurology that is .. that is particularly labile that allows for it.<br /> | ||
10:00 [SH] But people have self-transcending experiences.<br /> | 10:00 [SH] But people have self-transcending experiences.<br /> | ||
- | 10:03 [SH] And people have the best day of their life where everything seemed | + | 10:03 [SH] And people have the best day of their life where everything seemed �<br /> |
10:06 [SH] you know, they seemed at one with nature.<br /> | 10:06 [SH] you know, they seemed at one with nature.<br /> | ||
10:07 [DD] Sure.<br /> | 10:07 [DD] Sure.<br /> | ||
- | 10:08 [SH] And for that, it | + | 10:08 [SH] And for that, it �<br /> |
10:10 [SH] Because religion seems to be the only game in town in talking about those experiences and dignifying them,<br /> | 10:10 [SH] Because religion seems to be the only game in town in talking about those experiences and dignifying them,<br /> | ||
- | 10:17 [SH] everyone | + | 10:17 [SH] everyone �<br /> |
10:18 [SH] that's one reason why I think it seems to be taboo to criticise it,<br /> | 10:18 [SH] that's one reason why I think it seems to be taboo to criticise it,<br /> | ||
- | 10:22 [SH] because you are talking about the most important moments in people's lives and trashing them | + | 10:22 [SH] because you are talking about the most important moments in people's lives and trashing them �<br /> |
10:26 [SH] at least from their view.<br /> | 10:26 [SH] at least from their view.<br /> | ||
10:27 [RD] Well, I don't have to agree with you, Sam, in order to say that it's a very good thing you're saying that sort of thing,<br /> | 10:27 [RD] Well, I don't have to agree with you, Sam, in order to say that it's a very good thing you're saying that sort of thing,<br /> | ||
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10:40 [RD] It's like it's a good idea to have somebody from the political right who is an atheist,<br /> | 10:40 [RD] It's like it's a good idea to have somebody from the political right who is an atheist,<br /> | ||
10:46 [RD] because otherwise there's a confusion of values which doesn't help us.<br /> | 10:46 [RD] because otherwise there's a confusion of values which doesn't help us.<br /> | ||
- | 10:52 [RD] And it's much better to | + | 10:52 [RD] And it's much better to � to have this diversity in � in other areas.<br /> |
10:58 [RD] But I think I sort of do agree with you.<br /> | 10:58 [RD] But I think I sort of do agree with you.<br /> | ||
11:00 [RD] Ah, but even if I didn't, I think it was valuable to have that.<br /> | 11:00 [RD] Ah, but even if I didn't, I think it was valuable to have that.<br /> | ||
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11:26 [CH] It's never even been suggested that Jesus Christ created that landscape<br /> | 11:26 [CH] It's never even been suggested that Jesus Christ created that landscape<br /> | ||
- | 11:30 [SH] Right. A frozen waterfall in three | + | 11:30 [SH] Right. A frozen waterfall in three �<br /> |
- | 11:32 [RD] Three parts | + | 11:32 [RD] Three parts �<br /> |
11:33 [SH] parts which, would remind of the Trinity.<br /> | 11:33 [SH] parts which, would remind of the Trinity.<br /> | ||
11:34 [CH] Well, absolutely. We're all triune in one way or another,<br /> | 11:34 [CH] Well, absolutely. We're all triune in one way or another,<br /> | ||
11:37 [CH] We're programmed for that. That's very clear.<br /> | 11:37 [CH] We're programmed for that. That's very clear.<br /> | ||
- | 11:40 [CH] Um, there wouldn't | + | 11:40 [CH] Um, there wouldn't � it there wouldn't ever have been a four-headed God..<br /> |
11:43 [SH] Right (<em>laughs</em>)<br /> | 11:43 [SH] Right (<em>laughs</em>)<br /> | ||
11:45 [CH] You know that from experience.<br /> | 11:45 [CH] You know that from experience.<br /> | ||
11:47 [CH] But that would be an enormous distinction to make.<br /> | 11:47 [CH] But that would be an enormous distinction to make.<br /> | ||
- | 11:49 [CH] And I think it would clear up a lot of people's confusion that this | + | 11:49 [CH] And I think it would clear up a lot of people's confusion that this �<br /> |
11:52 [CH] that what we have in our emotions are the surplus value of our personalities,<br /> | 11:52 [CH] that what we have in our emotions are the surplus value of our personalities,<br /> | ||
11:56 [CH] the bits that aren't particular useful for our evolution, well, that we can't prove are,<br /> | 11:56 [CH] the bits that aren't particular useful for our evolution, well, that we can't prove are,<br /> | ||
- | 12:01 [CH] but that do belong to us all the same | + | 12:01 [CH] but that do belong to us all the same �<br /> |
12:03 [CH] don't belong to the supernatural and are not to be conscripted or annexed by any priesthood.<br /> | 12:03 [CH] don't belong to the supernatural and are not to be conscripted or annexed by any priesthood.<br /> | ||
- | 12:08 [DD] Yes, it's | + | 12:08 [DD] Yes, it's � it's a sad fact that people, in a sense, won't trust their own valuing of their numinous experiences.<br /> |
- | 12:19 [DD] They think, it isn't really as good as it seems, unless it's | + | 12:19 [DD] They think, it isn't really as good as it seems, unless it's � unless it's from God � unless it's � and some kind of a proof of religion.<br /> |
12:27 [DD] No, it's just as wonderful as it seems. It's just as important. It is the best moment in your life.<br /> | 12:27 [DD] No, it's just as wonderful as it seems. It's just as important. It is the best moment in your life.<br /> | ||
12:32 [DD] And it's the moment when you .. you forget yourself and become better than you ever thought you could be in some way.<br /> | 12:32 [DD] And it's the moment when you .. you forget yourself and become better than you ever thought you could be in some way.<br /> | ||
12:38 [DD] And see, in all humbleness, the wonderfulness of nature.<br /> | 12:38 [DD] And see, in all humbleness, the wonderfulness of nature.<br /> | ||
- | 12:43 [DD] That's | + | 12:43 [DD] That's � that's it! And that's wonderful.<br /> |
12:45 [DD] But, it doesn't add anything to say, golly, that has to have been given to me by somebody even more wonderful.<br /> | 12:45 [DD] But, it doesn't add anything to say, golly, that has to have been given to me by somebody even more wonderful.<br /> | ||
- | 12:53 [RD] It's been hijacked, hasn't it, by the | + | 12:53 [RD] It's been hijacked, hasn't it, by the �?<br /> |
- | 12:55 [CH] But it's also | + | 12:55 [CH] But it's also � it's also �<br /> |
- | 12:57 [CH] I'm afraid .. it's a | + | 12:57 [CH] I'm afraid .. it's a � I think it's a �<br /> |
12:58 [CH] I think it's a deformity or a shortcoming in the human personality, frankly,<br /> | 12:58 [CH] I think it's a deformity or a shortcoming in the human personality, frankly,<br /> | ||
- | 13:04 [CH] because the | + | 13:04 [CH] because the � religion keeps stressing how humble it is, and how meek it is, and how accepting, and �<br /> |
13:12 [CH] almost to the point of self-abnegationist.<br /> | 13:12 [CH] almost to the point of self-abnegationist.<br /> | ||
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13:20 [RD] Yes.<br /> | 13:20 [RD] Yes.<br /> | ||
13:21 [CH] And I felt terrifically humble about it. Come on!<br /> | 13:21 [CH] And I felt terrifically humble about it. Come on!<br /> | ||
- | 13:22 [CH] You know, we have | + | 13:22 [CH] You know, we have � we can laugh people out of that, I believe.<br /> |
13:25 [SH] Right.<br /> | 13:25 [SH] Right.<br /> | ||
13:25 [RD] Yeah.<br /> | 13:25 [RD] Yeah.<br /> | ||
- | 13:28 [DD] Also, and I think we should | + | 13:28 [DD] Also, and I think we should �<br /> |
13:27 [CH] And indeed must.<br /> | 13:27 [CH] And indeed must.<br /> | ||
13:28 [DD] I am so tired of the, uh,<br /> | 13:28 [DD] I am so tired of the, uh,<br /> | ||
- | 13:31 [DD] if only Professor Dennett had the humility to blah, blah, | + | 13:31 [DD] if only Professor Dennett had the humility to blah, blah, blah�<br /> |
13:34 [RD] Yes.<br /> | 13:34 [RD] Yes.<br /> | ||
- | 13:35 [DD] And humility, humility | + | 13:35 [DD] And humility, humility �<br /> |
13:36 [DD] and this, from people of breathtaking arrogance.<br /> | 13:36 [DD] and this, from people of breathtaking arrogance.<br /> | ||
- | 13:40 [DD] And I think | + | 13:40 [DD] And I think �<br /> |
- | 13:42 [CH] We shove one aside, saying | + | 13:42 [CH] We shove one aside, saying � just don't mind me, I'm on an errand for God!<br /> |
13:45 [DD] Yeah, right.<br /> | 13:45 [DD] Yeah, right.<br /> | ||
13:46 (<em>laughter</em>)<br /> | 13:46 (<em>laughter</em>)<br /> | ||
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13:57 [SH] Scientists, in my experience, are the first people to say they don't know.<br /> | 13:57 [SH] Scientists, in my experience, are the first people to say they don't know.<br /> | ||
- | 14:01 [SH] I mean if you get | + | 14:01 [SH] I mean if you get � if you get a scientist to start talking off his area of specialisation,<br /> |
- | 14:08 [SH] he immediately starts | + | 14:08 [SH] he immediately starts � he or she hedging his bet, saying,<br /> |
- | 14:12 [SH] you know, I'm not sure but I'm sure there's someone in the room who knows more about this than me | + | 14:12 [SH] you know, I'm not sure but I'm sure there's someone in the room who knows more about this than me �<br /> |
- | 14:15 [SH] and, of course, so, you know, all the data's not in | + | 14:15 [SH] and, of course, so, you know, all the data's not in �<br /> |
- | 14:18 [SH] This is | + | 14:18 [SH] This is � the mode of discourse in which we are most candid about the scope of our ignorance.<br /> |
14:24 [CH] Well actually a lot of academics come up with that kind of false modesty.<br /> | 14:24 [CH] Well actually a lot of academics come up with that kind of false modesty.<br /> | ||
14:28 [CH] But I do know what you mean.<br /> | 14:28 [CH] But I do know what you mean.<br /> | ||
- | 14:28 [SH] Well, yeah, yes it is | + | 14:28 [SH] Well, yeah, yes it is �<br /> |
- | 14:29 [CH] Many's the historian who says, "no, I | + | 14:29 [CH] Many's the historian who says, "no, I yield�" (<em>inaudible</em>)<br /> |
- | 14:32 [RD] No, but any academic should do that, any | + | 14:32 [RD] No, but any academic should do that, any �<br /> |
14:33 [CH] Yes, they should.<br /> | 14:33 [CH] Yes, they should.<br /> | ||
14:34 [RD] The thing about religious people is that they recite the Nicene Creed every week,<br /> | 14:34 [RD] The thing about religious people is that they recite the Nicene Creed every week,<br /> | ||
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14:41 [RD] There are three gods, not one.<br /> | 14:41 [RD] There are three gods, not one.<br /> | ||
14:42 [RD] The virgin Mary.<br /> | 14:42 [RD] The virgin Mary.<br /> | ||
- | 14:44 [RD] Um, Jesus died | + | 14:44 [RD] Um, Jesus died � went to the� what was it? � down for three days, and then came up again?<br /> |
14:48 [CH] Yes.<br /> | 14:48 [CH] Yes.<br /> | ||
14:49 [RD] In precise detail.<br /> | 14:49 [RD] In precise detail.<br /> | ||
14:51 [RD] And yet, they have the gall to accuse us of being overconfident.<br /> | 14:51 [RD] And yet, they have the gall to accuse us of being overconfident.<br /> | ||
- | 14:55 [RD] And of | + | 14:55 [RD] And of � and of not knowing what it is to doubt.<br /> |
- | 14:59 [DD] And | + | 14:59 [DD] And � and I don't think many of them ever let themselves contemplate the question which I think scientists ask themselves all the time:<br /> |
15:08 [DD] what if I'm wrong?<br /> | 15:08 [DD] what if I'm wrong?<br /> | ||
15:09 [RD] Yeah.<br /> | 15:09 [RD] Yeah.<br /> | ||
15:10 [DD] "What if I'm wrong?"<br /> | 15:10 [DD] "What if I'm wrong?"<br /> | ||
- | 15:13 [DD] I mean | + | 15:13 [DD] I mean � it's just not part of their repertoire.<br /> |
15:16 [CH] Actually, would you mind if I disagree with you about that?<br /> | 15:16 [CH] Actually, would you mind if I disagree with you about that?<br /> | ||
15:18 [DD] No.<br /> | 15:18 [DD] No.<br /> | ||
- | 15:18 [CH] I mean | + | 15:18 [CH] I mean � a lot of talk that makes religious people hard to �<br /> |
15:24 [CH] ah, not hard to beat, but hard to argue with, is precisely that they'll say that they're in a permanent crisis of faith.<br /> | 15:24 [CH] ah, not hard to beat, but hard to argue with, is precisely that they'll say that they're in a permanent crisis of faith.<br /> | ||
15:30 [CH] There is indeed a prayer, "Lord I believe, help thou my unbelief."<br /> | 15:30 [CH] There is indeed a prayer, "Lord I believe, help thou my unbelief."<br /> | ||
15:34 [CH] Graham Greene says the great thing about being a Catholic was that it was a challenge to his unbelief.<br /> | 15:34 [CH] Graham Greene says the great thing about being a Catholic was that it was a challenge to his unbelief.<br /> | ||
15:40 [CH] A lot of people live by keeping two sets of books.<br /> | 15:40 [CH] A lot of people live by keeping two sets of books.<br /> | ||
- | 15:42 [CH] In fact, it's my impression | + | 15:42 [CH] In fact, it's my impression �<br /> |
15:43 [DD] Yes, there is that.<br /> | 15:43 [DD] Yes, there is that.<br /> | ||
15:44 [CH] It's my impression that a majority of the people I know who call themselves believers, or people of faith, do that all the time.<br /> | 15:44 [CH] It's my impression that a majority of the people I know who call themselves believers, or people of faith, do that all the time.<br /> | ||
15:50 [CH] I wouldn't say it was schizophrenia.<br /> | 15:50 [CH] I wouldn't say it was schizophrenia.<br /> | ||
- | 15:52 [CH] That would be | + | 15:52 [CH] That would be � that would be rude.<br /> |
- | 15:54 [RD] So | + | 15:54 [RD] So �<br /> |
- | 15:54 [CH] But they | + | 15:54 [CH] But they � they're quite aware of the implausibility of what they say.<br /> |
- | 15:58 [CH] They | + | 15:58 [CH] They � they don't act on it when they go to the doctor, or when they travel, or anything of this kind.<br /> |
16:01 [SH] Right.<br /> | 16:01 [SH] Right.<br /> | ||
16:03 [CH] But in some sense they couldn't be without it.<br /> | 16:03 [CH] But in some sense they couldn't be without it.<br /> | ||
- | 16:04 [CH] But they're | + | 16:04 [CH] But they're � they're quite respectful of the idea of doubt.<br /> |
- | 16:08 [CH] In fact they make a | + | 16:08 [CH] In fact they make a � they try and build it in when they can.<br /> |
- | 16:11 [RD] Well, that's interesting then | + | 16:11 [RD] Well, that's interesting then �<br /> |
- | 16:12 [RD] and so when they are reciting "the Creed", with its | + | 16:12 [RD] and so when they are reciting "the Creed", with its � with its total, sort of, apparent conviction �<br /> |
- | 16:18 [RD] Is this a | + | 16:18 [RD] Is this a � this is a kind of mantra which is forcing themselves to overcome doubt, by saying �<br /> |
- | 16:22 [RD] Yes, I do believe, I do believe, I do believe! | + | 16:22 [RD] Yes, I do believe, I do believe, I do believe! � ah �<br /> |
16:24 [DD] Sure.<br /> | 16:24 [DD] Sure.<br /> | ||
- | 16:25 [RD] because really I don' | + | 16:25 [RD] because really I don't�<br /> |
- | 16:27 [CH] And of course, like the other | + | 16:27 [CH] And of course, like the other � like their secular counterparts, they're glad other people believe it.<br /> |
16:31 [CH] It's an affirmation they wouldn't want other people not to be making.<br /> | 16:31 [CH] It's an affirmation they wouldn't want other people not to be making.<br /> | ||
16:33 [RD] Yes.<br /> | 16:33 [RD] Yes.<br /> | ||
- | 16:34 [SH] Well, also, there's this | + | 16:34 [SH] Well, also, there's this � there this curious bootstrapping move which I tried to point out in this recent On Faith piece.<br /> |
- | 16:42 [SH] This | + | 16:42 [SH] This � this idea that you start with the premise that "belief without evidence is especially noble".<br /> |
16:47 [SH] I mean, this is the doctrine of faith.<br /> | 16:47 [SH] I mean, this is the doctrine of faith.<br /> | ||
16:48 [SH] This is, you know, the parable of Doubting Thomas.<br /> | 16:48 [SH] This is, you know, the parable of Doubting Thomas.<br /> | ||
- | 16:51 [SH] And so you start with that, and then you add this notion which has come to me through various debates that | + | 16:51 [SH] And so you start with that, and then you add this notion which has come to me through various debates that �<br /> |
- | 16:57 [SH] that the | + | 16:57 [SH] that the � the fact that people can believe without evidence is itself a subtle form of evidence.<br /> |
- | 17:02 [SH] I mean, we're kind've wired to | + | 17:02 [SH] I mean, we're kind've wired to �<br /> |
17:03 [SH] actually Francis Collins, you mentioned, brings this up in this book.<br /> | 17:03 [SH] actually Francis Collins, you mentioned, brings this up in this book.<br /> | ||
17:07 [SH] The fact that we have this intuition of god is itself some subtle form of evidence.<br /> | 17:07 [SH] The fact that we have this intuition of god is itself some subtle form of evidence.<br /> | ||
- | 17:12 [SH] And it's this kind of kindling phenomenon where once you say, "it's good to start without evidence | + | 17:12 [SH] And it's this kind of kindling phenomenon where once you say, "it's good to start without evidence �"<br /> |
17:16 [SH] the fact that you can, is a subtle form of evidence.<br /> | 17:16 [SH] the fact that you can, is a subtle form of evidence.<br /> | ||
17:20 [SH] And then, the demand for any more evidence is itself a kind of corruption of the intellect, or a temptation, or something to be guarded against.<br /> | 17:20 [SH] And then, the demand for any more evidence is itself a kind of corruption of the intellect, or a temptation, or something to be guarded against.<br /> | ||
17:27 [SH] And you get a kind of perpetual motion machine of self deception, where you can get this thing up and running.<br /> | 17:27 [SH] And you get a kind of perpetual motion machine of self deception, where you can get this thing up and running.<br /> | ||
- | 17:32 [CH] But they | + | 17:32 [CH] But they � they like the idea that it can't be demonstrated,<br /> |
17:35 [CH] because then there'd be nothing to be faithful about.<br /> | 17:35 [CH] because then there'd be nothing to be faithful about.<br /> | ||
17:38 [SH] Right, that's the point of faith.<br /> | 17:38 [SH] Right, that's the point of faith.<br /> | ||
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17:45 [CH] well, then we would be living in an unalterable system of belief.<br /> | 17:45 [CH] well, then we would be living in an unalterable system of belief.<br /> | ||
- | 17:50 [CH] And it would have to be policed, um | + | 17:50 [CH] And it would have to be policed, um �<br /> |
17:51 [SH] Right.<br /> | 17:51 [SH] Right.<br /> | ||
- | 17:51 [CH] | + | 17:51 [CH] � and it would actually be �<br /> |
17:54 [CH] those of us who don't believe in it are very glad it's not true, because we think it would be horrible,<br /> | 17:54 [CH] those of us who don't believe in it are very glad it's not true, because we think it would be horrible,<br /> | ||
17:57 [CH] those who do believe it don't want it to be absolutely proven so there can't be any doubt about it,<br /> | 17:57 [CH] those who do believe it don't want it to be absolutely proven so there can't be any doubt about it,<br /> | ||
- | 18:02 [CH] because then there's no | + | 18:02 [CH] because then there's no � there's wrestling<br /> |
- | 18:03 [SH] Somebody | + | 18:03 [SH] Somebody �<br /> |
18:04 [CH] with conscience, there are no dark nights of the soul.<br /> | 18:04 [CH] with conscience, there are no dark nights of the soul.<br /> | ||
18:06 [SH] it was a review of one of our books.<br /> | 18:06 [SH] it was a review of one of our books.<br /> | ||
18:08 [SH] I don't remember which, but it was exactly that point.<br /> | 18:08 [SH] I don't remember which, but it was exactly that point.<br /> | ||
- | 18:11 [SH] That | + | 18:11 [SH] That � that just what a crass expectation on the part of atheists that there should be total evidence for this.<br /> |
- | 18:18 [SH] I mean, there would be much less magic | + | 18:18 [SH] I mean, there would be much less magic �<br /> |
- | 18:20 [SH] you know, if everyone | + | 18:20 [SH] you know, if everyone � if everyone was compelled to believe by too much evidence �<br /> |
18:24 [SH] Actually, this is Francis Collins. I'm, sorry. This is Francis Collins.<br /> | 18:24 [SH] Actually, this is Francis Collins. I'm, sorry. This is Francis Collins.<br /> | ||
18:26 [CH] Well, a friend of mine Canon Fenton of Oxford, actually,<br /> | 18:26 [CH] Well, a friend of mine Canon Fenton of Oxford, actually,<br /> | ||
- | 18:30 [CH] said that if the | + | 18:30 [CH] said that if the � if the Church validated<br /> |
18:35 [CH] the Holy Shroud of Turin, he personally would leave<br /> | 18:35 [CH] the Holy Shroud of Turin, he personally would leave<br /> | ||
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18:38 [CH] the ranks. Because if they were doing things like that, he didn't want any part of it.<br /> | 18:38 [CH] the ranks. Because if they were doing things like that, he didn't want any part of it.<br /> | ||
18:41 [SH] Right.<br /> | 18:41 [SH] Right.<br /> | ||
- | 18:43 [SH] Ah | + | 18:43 [SH] Ah �<br /> |
- | 18:43 [SH] That's too | + | 18:43 [SH] That's too �<br /> |
- | 18:44 [CH] I didn't expect when I started off for my book tour | + | 18:44 [CH] I didn't expect when I started off for my book tour �<br /> |
18:47 [CH] to be as lucky as I was.<br /> | 18:47 [CH] to be as lucky as I was.<br /> | ||
18:49 [CH] I mean, Jerry Falwell died in my first week on the road. That was amazing.<br /> | 18:49 [CH] I mean, Jerry Falwell died in my first week on the road. That was amazing.<br /> | ||
Line 460: | Line 462: | ||
19:03 [CH] She writes, "I can't bring myself to believe any of this".<br /> | 19:03 [CH] She writes, "I can't bring myself to believe any of this".<br /> | ||
19:05 [CH] She tells all her confessors all her superiors, "I can't hear a voice. I can't feel the presence, even in the mass, even in the sacraments" No small thing.<br /> | 19:05 [CH] She tells all her confessors all her superiors, "I can't hear a voice. I can't feel the presence, even in the mass, even in the sacraments" No small thing.<br /> | ||
- | 19:13 [CH] And they write back to her saying, "that's good. That's great. You're suffering | + | 19:13 [CH] And they write back to her saying, "that's good. That's great. You're suffering � it gives you a share in the crucifixion. It makes you part of Calvary."<br /> |
19:21 [CH] You can't beat an argument like that.<br /> | 19:21 [CH] You can't beat an argument like that.<br /> | ||
Line 469: | Line 471: | ||
19:32 [DD] Yeah.<br /> | 19:32 [DD] Yeah.<br /> | ||
19:33 [CH] So, we just have to realise that these really are nonoverlapping magisteria.<br /> | 19:33 [CH] So, we just have to realise that these really are nonoverlapping magisteria.<br /> | ||
- | 19:38 [CH] We can't | + | 19:38 [CH] We can't � we can't hope to argue with a mentality of this kind.<br /> |
- | 19:42 [SH] Well, no, actually, I disagree there | + | 19:42 [SH] Well, no, actually, I disagree there �<br /> |
19:44 [DD] No, but we can do just what you're doing now,<br /> | 19:44 [DD] No, but we can do just what you're doing now,<br /> | ||
19:47 [DD] and that is, we can say, "look at this interesting bag of tricks that've evolved"<br /> | 19:47 [DD] and that is, we can say, "look at this interesting bag of tricks that've evolved"<br /> | ||
- | 19:52 [DD] Notice that they are circular | + | 19:52 [DD] Notice that they are circular � that they're self-sustaining � that they don't have any � that they could be about anything.<br /> |
- | 19:59 [DD] | + | 19:59 [DD] And� and then you don't argue with them,<br /> |
- | 20:01 [DD] you simply point out that these are not | + | 20:01 [DD] you simply point out that these are not � these are not valid ways of thinking about anything.<br /> |
- | 20:10 [DD] Because you can | + | 20:10 [DD] Because you can �<br /> |
20:11 [SH] Right<br /> | 20:11 [SH] Right<br /> | ||
20:12 [DD] you could use the very same tricks to sustain something which was manifestly fraudulent.<br /> | 20:12 [DD] you could use the very same tricks to sustain something which was manifestly fraudulent.<br /> | ||
- | 20:18 [DD] And in fact, what fascinates me is that a lot of the tricks are | + | 20:18 [DD] And in fact, what fascinates me is that a lot of the tricks are � they have their counterparts with con artists.<br /> |
20:23 [SH] Yeah.<br /> | 20:23 [SH] Yeah.<br /> | ||
- | 20:24 [DD] They use the very same forms of non-argument | + | 20:24 [DD] They use the very same forms of non-argument � the very same non sequiturs,<br /> |
20:29 [DD] and, they make, for instance, they make a virtue out of trust.<br /> | 20:29 [DD] and, they make, for instance, they make a virtue out of trust.<br /> | ||
- | 20:34 [DD] And | + | 20:34 [DD] And � and as soon as you start exhibiting any suspicion of the con man who is about �<br /> |
- | 20:40 [DD] he gets all hurt on you | + | 20:40 [DD] he gets all hurt on you �<br /> |
20:41 [DD] and plays the hurt feelings card.<br /> | 20:41 [DD] and plays the hurt feelings card.<br /> | ||
- | 20:45 [DD] And reminds you how wonderful taking it on faith is. and how | + | 20:45 [DD] And reminds you how wonderful taking it on faith is. and how �<br /> |
20:52 [CH] Yes.<br /> | 20:52 [CH] Yes.<br /> | ||
- | 20:53 [DD] I mean, there aren't any | + | 20:53 [DD] I mean, there aren't any � there's aren't any new tricks �<br /> |
20:57 [DD] these tricks have evolved over thousands of years.<br /> | 20:57 [DD] these tricks have evolved over thousands of years.<br /> | ||
- | 20:59 [CH] And you want | + | 20:59 [CH] And you want � you could add the production of bogus special effects as well, which was, um �<br /> |
21:02 [DD] Yeah, yeah<br /> | 21:02 [DD] Yeah, yeah<br /> | ||
21:02 [CH] one of the things that completely convicts religion of being fraudulent,<br /> | 21:02 [CH] one of the things that completely convicts religion of being fraudulent,<br /> | ||
21:05 [SH] Right.<br /> | 21:05 [SH] Right.<br /> | ||
- | 21:06 [CH] the | + | 21:06 [CH] the � the belief in the miraculous.<br /> |
21:08 [CH] The same people will say well Einstein felt a spiritual force in the universe, when he said, "the whole point about it is, there are no miracles.<br /> | 21:08 [CH] The same people will say well Einstein felt a spiritual force in the universe, when he said, "the whole point about it is, there are no miracles.<br /> | ||
21:17 [CH] There are no changes in the natural order. That's the miraculous thing."<br /> | 21:17 [CH] There are no changes in the natural order. That's the miraculous thing."<br /> | ||
- | 21:23 [CH] They're completely cynical about claiming him | + | 21:23 [CH] They're completely cynical about claiming him �<br /> |
- | 21.26 [SH] Well, the other thing | + | 21.26 [SH] Well, the other thing �<br /> |
21.27 [CH] in almost the same breath.<br /> | 21.27 [CH] in almost the same breath.<br /> | ||
- | 21.29 [SH] is that | + | 21.29 [SH] is that � these �<br /> |
21.30 [DD] mm hmm<br /> | 21.30 [DD] mm hmm<br /> | ||
- | 21.31 [SH] Every religious person stand | + | 21.31 [SH] Every religious person stand � feels the same criticism of other people's faith that we do, as atheists.<br /> |
21.37 [CH] Yes.<br /> | 21.37 [CH] Yes.<br /> | ||
21.38 [SH] I mean, they reject the pseudo miracles and the pseudo claims to certainty,<br /> | 21.38 [SH] I mean, they reject the pseudo miracles and the pseudo claims to certainty,<br /> | ||
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21.47 [SH] and they see it rather readily.<br /> | 21.47 [SH] and they see it rather readily.<br /> | ||
21.48 [SH] You know, every Christian knows the Koran can't be the perfect word of the creator of the universe,<br /> | 21.48 [SH] You know, every Christian knows the Koran can't be the perfect word of the creator of the universe,<br /> | ||
- | 21.52 [SH] and anyone who thinks it is, hasn't read it closely enough and it's just | + | 21.52 [SH] and anyone who thinks it is, hasn't read it closely enough and it's just � in this hermetically-sealed discourse that isn't really being self-critical.<br /> |
- | 21.58 [SH] Ah, and I think we | + | 21.58 [SH] Ah, and I think we � we're on very strong � we make a very strong case when we point that out,<br /> |
22.04 [SH] and point out also that whatever people are experiencing, in church or in prayer, no matter how positive,<br /> | 22.04 [SH] and point out also that whatever people are experiencing, in church or in prayer, no matter how positive,<br /> | ||
22.11 [SH] the fact that Buddhists and Hindus and Muslims and Christians are all experiencing it,<br /> | 22.11 [SH] the fact that Buddhists and Hindus and Muslims and Christians are all experiencing it,<br /> | ||
- | 22.17 [SH] proves that it can't be matter of the divinity of Jesus, or the unique sanctity of the Koran, or | + | 22.17 [SH] proves that it can't be matter of the divinity of Jesus, or the unique sanctity of the Koran, or � because<br /> |
21.24 [DD] 'Cause there's seventeen different ways of getting there, yeah.<br /> | 21.24 [DD] 'Cause there's seventeen different ways of getting there, yeah.<br /> | ||
- | 22.26 [CH] By the way, on that, a tiny point. It's not | + | 22.26 [CH] By the way, on that, a tiny point. It's not � I hope not a digression, it's �<br /> |
22.28 [CH] it's useful bearing that in mind, too, when you get, as I did this morning on ABC News,<br /> | 22.28 [CH] it's useful bearing that in mind, too, when you get, as I did this morning on ABC News,<br /> | ||
22.33 [CH] the question "well, wouldn't you say religion did some good in the world, and there were good people?"<br /> | 22.33 [CH] the question "well, wouldn't you say religion did some good in the world, and there were good people?"<br /> | ||
- | 22.37 [CH] You never | + | 22.37 [CH] You never � don't get that argument,<br /> |
22.39 [CH] and by the way, there's no reason why one shouldn't, you say<br /> | 22.39 [CH] and by the way, there's no reason why one shouldn't, you say<br /> | ||
22.42 [CH] "well, yes, I have indeed heard it said that Hamas provides social services in Gaza".<br /> | 22.42 [CH] "well, yes, I have indeed heard it said that Hamas provides social services in Gaza".<br /> | ||
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22.47 [CH] And I've even heard it said that Farrakhan's group gets young, black men in prison off drugs.<br /> | 22.47 [CH] And I've even heard it said that Farrakhan's group gets young, black men in prison off drugs.<br /> | ||
- | 22.50 [CH] I don't know if it's true, I'm willing to accept it might be | + | 22.50 [CH] I don't know if it's true, I'm willing to accept it might be �<br /> |
22.53 [SH] Right.<br /> | 22.53 [SH] Right.<br /> | ||
22.54 [CH] But it doesn't alter the fact that the one is a militarised, terrorist organisation with a fanatical anti-Semitic ideology, and the second is a racist, crackpot cult.<br /> | 22.54 [CH] But it doesn't alter the fact that the one is a militarised, terrorist organisation with a fanatical anti-Semitic ideology, and the second is a racist, crackpot cult.<br /> | ||
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23.04 [CH] And I have no doubt that Scientology gets people off drugs, too.<br /> | 23.04 [CH] And I have no doubt that Scientology gets people off drugs, too.<br /> | ||
23.07 [SH] Yeah.<br /> | 23.07 [SH] Yeah.<br /> | ||
- | 23.08 [CH] But I | + | 23.08 [CH] But I � my insistence always with these people is if you will claim it for one, you must accept it for them all.<br /> |
- | 23.14 [SH] And the other move you can make there | + | 23.14 [SH] And the other move you can make there �<br /> |
23.15 [CH] 'Cause if you don't it's flat-out dishonest.<br /> | 23.15 [CH] 'Cause if you don't it's flat-out dishonest.<br /> | ||
- | 23.17 [SH] You can invent an ideology, which by your mere invention in that moment, is obviously untrue, which would be quite useful if propagated, to billions. I mean | + | 23.17 [SH] You can invent an ideology, which by your mere invention in that moment, is obviously untrue, which would be quite useful if propagated, to billions. I mean �<br /> |
23.28 [CH] That's right.<br /> | 23.28 [CH] That's right.<br /> | ||
23.29 [SH] You can say, ah, this is my new religion:<br /> | 23.29 [SH] You can say, ah, this is my new religion:<br /> | ||
- | 23.32 [SH] teach people to | + | 23.32 [SH] teach people to � demand that your children study science and math and economics, and all of our terrestrial disciplines, to the best of their abilities,<br /> |
23.40 [SH] and if they don't persist in those efforts, they'll be tortured after death by seventeen demons<br /> | 23.40 [SH] and if they don't persist in those efforts, they'll be tortured after death by seventeen demons<br /> | ||
23.45 (<em>laughter</em>).<br /> | 23.45 (<em>laughter</em>).<br /> |
Revision as of 12:48, 12 July 2009
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