Title: Transcript The Four Horsemen - Segment 1
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DKhc1pcDFM
From left to right (on screen):
- [CH] Christopher Hitchens
- [DD] Daniel Dennett
- [RD] Richard Dawkins
- [SH] Sam Harris
00:01 [RD] One of the things we've all met is the accusation that we are strident or
00:06 [RD] arrogant, or vitriolic, or shrill.
00:10 [RD] What do we think about that?
00:12 [DD] Hah! Well...
00:13 [DD] I'm amused by it, because I went out of my way in my book
00:17 [DD] to address reasonable, religious people.
00:21 [DD] And I test-flew the draft with groups of students who were deeply religious.
00:27 [DD] And indeed the first draft incurred some real anguish.
00:32 [DD] And so I made adjustments and made adjustments.
00:34 [DD] And it didn't do any good in the end because I still got hammered
00:37 [DD] for being ... for being rude and aggressive.
00:40 [DD] And I came to realise that it's
00:43 [DD] it's a no-win situation.
00:45 [DD] It's ... it's a ...
00:45 [DD] It's a mug's game.
00:47 [DD] The religions have ... have contrived to make it impossible to disagree with them critically....
00:50 [SH] Hmmm.
00:51 [DD]...without being rude.
00:55 [RD] Without being rude.
00:57 [DD] You know, they ...
00:58 [DD] they sort've play the hurt feelings card at every opportunity.
01:03 [DD] And you ...
01:04 [DD] you're faced with a choice of, well,
01:07 [DD] am I gonna be rude
01:08 [DD] or am I going to
01:09 [RD] Say nothing at all. Yeah...
01:10 [DD] ...articulate this criticism?
01:12 [DD] I mean, am I going to articulate it, or am I just gonna button my lip?
01:17 [SH] Right, well, that's what it is to trespass a taboo.
01:20 [SH] I think we're ... we're all encountering the fact that ...
01:22 [SH] that religion is ... is held ...
01:25 [SH] off the table of rational criticism in some kind of formal way even by,
01:30 [SH] we're discovering,
01:32 [SH] our fellow secularists and our fellow atheists.
01:34 [SH] You know, just leave people to their own superstition,
01:38 [SH] even if it's abject and causing harm.
01:41 [SH] And don't look too closely at it.
01:43 [DD] Now, that was, of course, the point of the title of my book ...
01:46 [DD] is there is this spell and we gotta break it.
01:48 [CH] But if the charge of, um, offensiveness in general is to be allowed in public discourse,
01:54 [CH] then, without self-pity, I think we should say that we, too, can be offended and insulted.
01:59 [CH] I mean, I ...
02:00 [CH] I'm not just in disagreement when someone like Tariq Ramadan,
02:05 [CH] accepted now at the high tables of Oxford University as a spokesman,
02:09 [CH] says the most he'll demand,
02:11 [CH] when it comes to the stoning of women,
02:13 [CH] is a moratorium on it.
02:15 [CH] I find that profoundly ...
02:18 [CH] much more than annoying.
02:19 [SH] Right, yeah, but I think ...
02:21 [CH] um, insulting ...
02:21 [CH] not only insulting, but actually threatening.
02:24 [SH] But you're not offended.
02:24 [CH] Um ...
02:25 [SH] This is ... you don't take any ...
02:26 [SH] I don't see you taking things personally.
02:28 [SH] You're alarmed by the ... the liabilities of certain ways of thinking, as is in Ramadan's case.
02:32 [CH] Yes. But he would say, or people like him would say
02:36 [CH] that if I doubt the historicity of the prophet Muhammad, I've injured them in their deepest feelings.
02:41 [SH] Right.
02:41 [CH] Well I ...
02:42 [CH] I am in fact ... I think all people ought to be,
02:46 [CH] offended at least in their deepest integrity by, say,
02:48 [CH] the religious proposition that without a supernatural, celestial dictatorship, we wouldn't know right from wrong.
02:54 [CH] That we only ...
02:55 [DD] Yeah
02:55 [CH] we only live by...
02:56 [SH] But are you really offended by that?
02:57 [SH] Doesn't it just seem wrong with you?
02:58 [CH] No. I say only, Sam, that if ...
03:00 [CH] if the offensiveness charge is to be allowed in general,
03:06 [CH] and arbitrated by the media,
03:08 [CH] then I think we're entitled to claim that much, without being self-pitying,
03:11 [CH] or representing ourselves as an oppressed minority,
03:14 [CH] which I think is an opposite danger, I will admit.
03:17 [CH] I'd like to add also that
03:19 [CH] that I agree with Daniel that there is no way in which
03:23 [CH] the charge against us can be completely avoided,
03:27 [CH] because what we say does offend the core,
03:29 [CH] very core of any serious religious person, (inaudible).
03:32 [CH] We deny the divinity of Jesus, for example. Many people will be terrifically shocked and possibly hurt.
03:38 [CH] It's just too bad.
03:40 [RD] I'm fascinated by the contrast between the amount of offense that's taken by religion
03:45 [RD] and the amount of offense that people take against
03:48 [RD] many ... anything else, like artistic taste.
03:50 [RD] Your taste in music, your taste in art.
03:52 [RD] Ah, your politics.
03:53 [RD] You could be ...
03:54 [RD] not exactly as rude as you'd like,
03:56 [RD] but you could be far, far more rude about such things.
03:59 [RD] And I'd quite like to try to quantify that.
04:01 [RD] To actively research about it, actually ...
04:03 [RD] test people with statements about their favourite football team,
04:06 [DD] Yeah
04:07 [DD] or their favourite piece of music or something.
04:09 [DD] And see how far you can go, before they take offense,
04:12 [DD] compared to ...
04:13 [DD] well, is there anything else, apart from say,
04:16 [DD] how ugly your face is, that gives such ...
04:19 [CH] Or your husband's or wife's, or girlfriend's or partner's faces
04:20 [RD] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes.
04:23 [CH] Well it's interesting that you say that,
04:24 [CH] because I regularly debate with a terrible man called John Donahue, of the Catholic Defence League,
04:29 [CH] and he actually is righteously upset by certain transient modern art,
04:33 [CH] which tend to draw attention to themselves by blasphemy.
04:37 [CH] For example Serrano's ...
04:38 [CH] Serrano's '"Piss Christ",
04:39 [CH] or the elephant dung on the Virgin, and so on.
04:41 [CH] And indeed, I think ... I think it's quite important that we share,
04:45 [CH] uh, with Sophocles and other pre-monotheists,
04:48 [CH] a revulsion to desecration or to profanity,
04:51 [CH] that we don't want to see,
04:53 [CH] um ... churches... uh ... desecrated,
04:55 [RD] No, indeed not.
04:57 [CH] or religious icons trashed, and so forth.
04:57 [RD] Yes
05:00 [CH] We ... we share an admiration for at least some of the aesthetic achievements of religion.
05:07 [SH] Right. I think this ... this whole notion of ...
05:09 [SH] I think our criticism is ...
05:11 [SH] is actually more barbed than that, in the sense that we're not ...
05:15 [SH] We are offending people, but we are also telling them
05:17 [SH] that they're wrong to be offended.
05:19 [SH] I mean this is ...
05:19 [RD] Yes!!
05:20 [SH] Physicists don't ...
05:22 [SH] aren't offended when their view of physics is disproved or challenged.
05:27 [SH] I mean, this is just not the way rational minds operate when they're really trying to get at what's true in the world.
05:33 [SH] And religions purport to be representing reality.
05:37 [SH] And yet there's this peevish and,
05:40 [SH] and tribal, and ultimately dangerous, reflexive response to having these ideas challenged.
05:46 [SH] I think we're ... we're pointing to the total liability of that fact.
05:51 [DD] Well, and too ...
05:52 [DD] There:s no polite way to say to somebody ...
05:56 [SH] You've wasted your life! (laughter)
05:57 [DD] do you realise you've wasted your life?
05:59 [DD] Um...
06:00 [DD] Do you realise that you've just devoted all your efforts and all your goods
06:04 [DD] to the ... a glorification of something which is just a myth?
06:09 [DD] Ah ... or have you ever considered ...
06:12 [DD] even if you say,
06:13 [DD] have you even considered the possibility that maybe you've wasted your life on this?
06:17 [DD] There's no ...
06:18 [DD] there's no inoffensive way of saying that.
06:20 [DD] But we do have to say it,
06:21 [DD] because they should jolly well consider it.
06:23 [DD] Same as we do about our own lives.
06:25 [SH] Oh, absolutely.
06:26 [RD] Dan Barker's making a collection of clergymen who've lost their faith but don't dare say so, because it's their only living.
06:32 [RD] It's the only thing they know what to do.
06:34 [SH] Yeah, I've heard from one of them, at least.
06:36 [RD] Have you? Yes.
06:37 [CH] I used to have this when I was young, ongoing arguments with members of the Communist Party.
06:41 [CH] They ... they sort of knew that it was all up with the Soviet Union.
06:45 [CH] Many of them have suffered a lot, and sacrificed a great deal.
06:48 [CH] And struggled, you know, manfully to keep what they thought was the great ideal alive.
06:54 [CH] Their mainspring had broken, but they couldn't give it up,
06:57 [CH] because it would involve a similar concession.
06:59 [SH] Right.
07:00 [CH] But certainly, I mean, if anyone said to me,
07:02 [CH] how could you say that to them about the Soviet Union?
07:04 [CH] Didn't you know you were going to really make them cry and hurt their feelings
07:06 [CH] I would've said "don't be ridiculous!"
07:09 [CH] Don't be absurd!
07:09 [CH] But it's ...
07:11 [CH] I find it ...
07:12 [SH] in many cases almost an exactly analogous argument.
07:15 [DD] When people tell me I'mbeing rude and vicious and terribly aggressive in the way that I ...
07:21 [DD] I say, well if I were saying these things about the pharmaceutical industry or the oil interests, ah,
07:29 [DD] would it be rude? Would it be off-limits? No.
07:31 [RD] 'Course it wouldn't.
07:32 [DD] Well, I want religion to be treated just the way we treat the pharmaceuticals and the oil industry.
07:39 [DD] I'm not against pharmaceutical companies.
07:41 [DD] I am against some of the things they do.
07:42 [DD] But I just want to put religions on the same page with them.
07:45 [CH] Including denying them tax exemption.
07:47 [DD] Yeah.
07:47 [RD] Yes.
07:48 [CH] And ... or in the English case, state subsidy.
07:51 [RD] I'm curious how religion acquired this charm status that it has, compared to any of these other things.
07:57 [RD] And somehow we've all bought into it whether we're religious or not.
08:00 [RD] And ... some historical process has lead to this immunisation of religion against, well,
08:08 [RD] this ... this hyper-offense taking that religion is allowed to take.
08:13 [DD] And what's particular amusing to me finally -
08:17 [DD] at first it infuriated me, but now I'm amused -
08:20 [DD] is they've managed to enlist legions of non-religious people who take offense on their behalf.
08:30 [RD] And how!
08:31 [DD] In fact, the most vicious reviews of my book ...
08:35 [DD] have been by people who are not themselves religious,
08:37 [DD] but they're terribly afraid of hurting the feelings of the people that are religious.
08:41 [DD] And they ... they chastise me worse than anybody who is deeply religious.
08:45 [RD] Exactly my experience. Exactly my experience.
08:46 [SH] And I think ...
08:47 [SH] So one of you pointed out how condescending that view is.
08:50 [RD] Yes, yes.
08:51 [SH] It's as if though ...
08:52 [SH] It's like the idea of penitentiaries
08:54 [SH] I mean, they're ...
08:55 [SH] other people need them,
08:57 [DD] That's right.
08:57 [SH] you know, that we must keep these people ...
08:58 [SH] safely in their myths.
09:00 [RD] Yes.
09:02 [SH] Well. I think there's one answer to that question which may illuminate a difference that ...
09:08 [SH] that ... or at least the difference that I have, I think, maybe with all three of you.
09:13 [SH] There's something about ...
09:15 [SH] I mean, I still use words like "spiritual" and "mystical" without furrowing my brow too much,
09:21 [SH] and, I admit, to the consternation of many atheists,
09:24 [SH] Um, I think there is a range of experience that is rare,
09:27 [SH] and that is only talked about without obvious qualms in religious discourse.
09:33 [SH] And because it's only talked about in religious discourse,
09:36 [SH] it is ... it is just riddled with superstition.
09:39 [SH] And it's used to cash out various metaphysical schemes which it can't reasonably do.
09:45 [SH] But clearly people have extraordinary experiences.
09:48 [SH] Whether they have them on LSD, or they have them because they were alone in a cave for a year.
09:53 [SH] Or they have them because just happen to have the neurology that is .. that is particularly labile that allows for it.
10:00 [SH] But people have self-transcending experiences.
10:03 [SH] And people have the best day of their life where everything seemed ...
10:06 [SH] you know, they seemed at one with nature.
10:07 [DD] Sure.
10:08 [SH] And for that, it ...
10:10 [SH] Because religion seems to be the only game in town in talking about those experiences and dignifying them,
10:17 [SH] everyone ...
10:18 [SH] that's one reason why I think it seems to be taboo to criticise it,
10:22 [SH] because you are talking about the most important moments in people's lives and trashing them ...
10:26 [SH] at least from their view.
10:27 [RD] Well, I don't have to agree with you, Sam, in order to say that it's a very good thing you're saying that sort of thing,
10:33 [RD] because it shows that, as you say, religion is not the only game in town when it comes to being spiritual.
10:40 [RD] It's like it's a good idea to have somebody from the political right who is an atheist,
10:46 [RD] because otherwise there's a confusion of values which doesn't help us.
10:52 [RD] And it's much better to ... to have this diversity in ... in other areas.
10:58 [RD] But I think I sort of do agree with you.
11:00 [RD] Ah, but even if I didn't, I think it was valuable to have that.
11:03 [SH] Right.
11:03 [CH] If one could make one change, and only one,
11:08 [CH] Mine would be to distinguish the numinous from the supernatural.
11:11 [RD] Yes.
11:12 [SH] Right
11:13 [CH] You had a marvelous quotation from Francis Collins, the genome pioneer,
11:17 [CH] who said, while mountaineering one day, he was so overcome by the landscape,
11:22 [CH] and then went down on his knees and accepted Jesus Christ.
11:25 [CH] A complete non sequitur
11:26 (general agreement)
11:26 [CH] It's never even been suggested that Jesus Christ created that landscape
11:30 [SH] Right. A frozen waterfall in three ...
11:32 [RD] Three parts ...
11:33 [SH] parts which, would remind of the Trinity.
11:34 [CH] Well, absolutely. We're all triune in one way or another,
11:37 [CH] We're programmed for that. That's very clear.
11:40 [CH] Um, there wouldn't ... it there wouldn't ever have been a four-headed God..
11:43 [SH] Right (laughs)
11:45 [CH] You know that from experience.
11:47 [CH] But that would be an enormous distinction to make.
11:49 [CH] And I think it would clear up a lot of people's confusion that this ...
11:52 [CH] that what we have in our emotions are the surplus value of our personalities,
11:56 [CH] the bits that aren't particular useful for our evolution, well, that we can't prove are,
12:01 [CH] but that do belong to us all the same ...
12:03 [CH] don't belong to the supernatural and are not to be conscripted or annexed by any priesthood.
12:08 [DD] Yes, it's ... it's a sad fact that people, in a sense, won't trust their own valuing of their numinous experiences.
12:19 [DD] They think, it isn't really as good as it seems, unless it's ... unless it's from God ... unless it's ... and some kind of a proof of religion.
12:27 [DD] No, it's just as wonderful as it seems. It's just as important. It is the best moment in your life.
12:32 [DD] And it's the moment when you .. you forget yourself and become better than you ever thought you could be in some way.
12:38 [DD] And see, in all humbleness, the wonderfulness of nature.
12:43 [DD] That's ... that's it! And that's wonderful.
12:45 [DD] But, it doesn't add anything to say, golly, that has to have been given to me by somebody even more wonderful.
12:53 [RD] It's been hijacked, hasn't it, by the ...?
12:55 [CH] But it's also ... it's also ...
12:57 [CH] I'm afraid .. it's a ... I think it's a ...
12:58 [CH] I think it's a deformity or a shortcoming in the human personality, frankly,
13:04 [CH] because the ... religion keeps stressing how humble it is, and how meek it is, and how accepting, and ...
13:12 [CH] almost to the point of self-abnegationist.
13:14 [CH] But actually it makes extraordinarily arrogant claims
13:16 [CH] for these moments, it says that
13:17 [CH] I suddenly realise that the universe is all about me.
13:19 [SH] Yeah, yeah.
13:20 [RD] Yes.
13:21 [CH] And I felt terrifically humble about it. Come on!
13:22 [CH] You know, we have ... we can laugh people out of that, I believe.
13:25 [SH] Right.
13:25 [RD] Yeah.
13:28 [DD] Also, and I think we should ...
13:27 [CH] And indeed must.
13:28 [DD] I am so tired of the, uh,
13:31 [DD] if only Professor Dennett had the humility to blah, blah, blah...
13:34 [RD] Yes.
13:35 [DD] And humility, humility ...
13:36 [DD] and this, from people of breathtaking arrogance.
13:40 [DD] And I think ...
13:42 [CH] We shove one aside, saying ... just don't mind me, I'm on an errand for God!
13:45 [DD] Yeah, right.
13:46 (laughter)
13:47 [CH] How modest is that?
13:48 [SH] This is the point I think we should return to, this notion of the arrogance of science.
13:51 [RD] Oh, um, yeah.
13:51 [SH] because there is no discourse which enforces humility more rigorously.
13:57 [SH] Scientists, in my experience, are the first people to say they don't know.
14:01 [SH] I mean if you get ... if you get a scientist to start talking off his area of specialisation,
14:08 [SH] he immediately starts ... he or she hedging his bet, saying,
14:12 [SH] you know, I'm not sure but I'm sure there's someone in the room who knows more about this than me ...
14:15 [SH] and, of course, so, you know, all the data's not in ...
14:18 [SH] This is ... the mode of discourse in which we are most candid about the scope of our ignorance.
14:24 [CH] Well actually a lot of academics come up with that kind of false modesty.
14:28 [CH] But I do know what you mean.
14:28 [SH] Well, yeah, yes it is ...
14:29 [CH] Many's the historian who says, "no, I yield..." (inaudible)
14:32 [RD] No, but any academic should do that, any ...
14:33 [CH] Yes, they should.
14:34 [RD] The thing about religious people is that they recite the Nicene Creed every week,
14:38 [RD] which says precisely what they believe.
14:41 [RD] There are three gods, not one.
14:42 [RD] The virgin Mary.
14:44 [RD] Um, Jesus died ... went to the... what was it? ... down for three days, and then came up again?
14:48 [CH] Yes.
14:49 [RD] In precise detail.
14:51 [RD] And yet, they have the gall to accuse us of being overconfident.
14:55 [RD] And of ... and of not knowing what it is to doubt.
14:59 [DD] And ... and I don't think many of them ever let themselves contemplate the question which I think scientists ask themselves all the time:
15:08 [DD] what if I'm wrong?
15:09 [RD] Yeah.
15:10 [DD] "What if I'm wrong?"
15:13 [DD] I mean ... it's just not part of their repertoire.
15:16 [CH] Actually, would you mind if I disagree with you about that?
15:18 [DD] No.
15:18 [CH] I mean ... a lot of talk that makes religious people hard to ...
15:24 [CH] ah, not hard to beat, but hard to argue with, is precisely that they'll say that they're in a permanent crisis of faith.
15:30 [CH] There is indeed a prayer, "Lord I believe, help thou my unbelief."
15:34 [CH] Graham Greene says the great thing about being a Catholic was that it was a challenge to his unbelief.
15:40 [CH] A lot of people live by keeping two sets of books.
15:42 [CH] In fact, it's my impression ...
15:43 [DD] Yes, there is that.
15:44 [CH] It's my impression that a majority of the people I know who call themselves believers, or people of faith, do that all the time.
15:50 [CH] I wouldn't say it was schizophrenia.
15:52 [CH] That would be ... that would be rude.
15:54 [RD] So ...
15:54 [CH] But they ... they're quite aware of the implausibility of what they say.
15:58 [CH] They ... they don't act on it when they go to the doctor, or when they travel, or anything of this kind.
16:01 [SH] Right.
16:03 [CH] But in some sense they couldn't be without it.
16:04 [CH] But they're ... they're quite respectful of the idea of doubt.
16:08 [CH] In fact they make a ... they try and build it in when they can.
16:11 [RD] Well, that's interesting then ...
16:12 [RD] and so when they are reciting "the Creed", with its ... with its total, sort of, apparent conviction ...
16:18 [RD] Is this a ... this is a kind of mantra which is forcing themselves to overcome doubt, by saying ...
16:22 [RD] Yes, I do believe, I do believe, I do believe! ... ah ...
16:24 [DD] Sure.
16:25 [RD] because really I don't...
16:27 [CH] And of course, like the other ... like their secular counterparts, they're glad other people believe it.
16:31 [CH] It's an affirmation they wouldn't want other people not to be making.
16:33 [RD] Yes.
16:34 [SH] Well, also, there's this ... there this curious bootstrapping move which I tried to point out in this recent On Faith piece.
16:42 [SH] This ... this idea that you start with the premise that "belief without evidence is especially noble".
16:47 [SH] I mean, this is the doctrine of faith.
16:48 [SH] This is, you know, the parable of Doubting Thomas.
16:51 [SH] And so you start with that, and then you add this notion which has come to me through various debates that ...
16:57 [SH] that the ... the fact that people can believe without evidence is itself a subtle form of evidence.
17:02 [SH] I mean, we're kind've wired to ...
17:03 [SH] actually Francis Collins, you mentioned, brings this up in this book.
17:07 [SH] The fact that we have this intuition of god is itself some subtle form of evidence.
17:12 [SH] And it's this kind of kindling phenomenon where once you say, "it's good to start without evidence ..."
17:16 [SH] the fact that you can, is a subtle form of evidence.
17:20 [SH] And then, the demand for any more evidence is itself a kind of corruption of the intellect, or a temptation, or something to be guarded against.
17:27 [SH] And you get a kind of perpetual motion machine of self deception, where you can get this thing up and running.
17:32 [CH] But they ... they like the idea that it can't be demonstrated,
17:35 [CH] because then there'd be nothing to be faithful about.
17:38 [SH] Right, that's the point of faith.
17:39 [CH] If everyone has seen the resurrection,
17:41 [CH] and if we all knew that we've been saved by it,
17:45 [CH] well, then we would be living in an unalterable system of belief.
17:50 [CH] And it would have to be policed, um ...
17:51 [SH] Right.
17:51 [CH] ... and it would actually be ...
17:54 [CH] those of us who don't believe in it are very glad it's not true, because we think it would be horrible,
17:57 [CH] those who do believe it don't want it to be absolutely proven so there can't be any doubt about it,
18:02 [CH] because then there's no ... there's wrestling
18:03 [SH] Somebody ...
18:04 [CH] with conscience, there are no dark nights of the soul.
18:06 [SH] it was a review of one of our books.
18:08 [SH] I don't remember which, but it was exactly that point.
18:11 [SH] That ... that just what a crass expectation on the part of atheists that there should be total evidence for this.
18:18 [SH] I mean, there would be much less magic ...
18:20 [SH] you know, if everyone ... if everyone was compelled to believe by too much evidence ...
18:24 [SH] Actually, this is Francis Collins. I'm, sorry. This is Francis Collins.
18:26 [CH] Well, a friend of mine Canon Fenton of Oxford, actually,
18:30 [CH] said that if the ... if the Church validated
18:35 [CH] the Holy Shroud of Turin, he personally would leave
18:37 (laughter)
18:38 [CH] the ranks. Because if they were doing things like that, he didn't want any part of it.
18:41 [SH] Right.
18:43 [SH] Ah ...
18:43 [SH] That's too ...
18:44 [CH] I didn't expect when I started off for my book tour ...
18:47 [CH] to be as lucky as I was.
18:49 [CH] I mean, Jerry Falwell died in my first week on the road. That was amazing.
18:52 [SH] Yes, that was amazing luck!
18:54 [CH] Um, I didn't expect Mother Teresa to come out as an atheist.
18:57 [DD] Yes. (general laughter)
18:59 [CH] But, reading her letters, which I now have, it's rather interesting.
19:03 [CH] She writes, "I can't bring myself to believe any of this".
19:05 [CH] She tells all her confessors all her superiors, "I can't hear a voice. I can't feel the presence, even in the mass, even in the sacraments" No small thing.
19:13 [CH] And they write back to her saying, "that's good. That's great. You're suffering ... it gives you a share in the crucifixion. It makes you part of Calvary."
19:21 [CH] You can't beat an argument like that.
19:24 [SH] Right.
19:24 [CH] The less you believe it, the more your demonstration of faith.
19:26 [SH] The more you prove it's true.
19:28 [CH] Yes, and the struggle, the dark night of the soul, is the proof in itself.
19:32 [DD] Yeah.
19:33 [CH] So, we just have to realise that these really are nonoverlapping magisteria.
19:38 [CH] We can't ... we can't hope to argue with a mentality of this kind.
19:42 [SH] Well, no, actually, I disagree there ...
19:44 [DD] No, but we can do just what you're doing now,
19:47 [DD] and that is, we can say, "look at this interesting bag of tricks that've evolved"
19:52 [DD] Notice that they are circular ... that they're self-sustaining ... that they don't have any ... that they could be about anything.
19:59 [DD] And... and then you don't argue with them,
20:01 [DD] you simply point out that these are not ... these are not valid ways of thinking about anything.
20:10 [DD] Because you can ...
20:11 [SH] Right
20:12 [DD] you could use the very same tricks to sustain something which was manifestly fraudulent.
20:18 [DD] And in fact, what fascinates me is that a lot of the tricks are ... they have their counterparts with con artists.
20:23 [SH] Yeah.
20:24 [DD] They use the very same forms of non-argument ... the very same non sequiturs,
20:29 [DD] and, they make, for instance, they make a virtue out of trust.
20:34 [DD] And ... and as soon as you start exhibiting any suspicion of the con man who is about ...
20:40 [DD] he gets all hurt on you ...
20:41 [DD] and plays the hurt feelings card.
20:45 [DD] And reminds you how wonderful taking it on faith is. and how ...
20:52 [CH] Yes.
20:53 [DD] I mean, there aren't any ... there's aren't any new tricks ...
20:57 [DD] these tricks have evolved over thousands of years.
20:59 [CH] And you want ... you could add the production of bogus special effects as well, which was, um ...
21:02 [DD] Yeah, yeah
21:02 [CH] one of the things that completely convicts religion of being fraudulent,
21:05 [SH] Right.
21:06 [CH] the ... the belief in the miraculous.
21:08 [CH] The same people will say well Einstein felt a spiritual force in the universe, when he said, "the whole point about it is, there are no miracles.
21:17 [CH] There are no changes in the natural order. That's the miraculous thing."
21:23 [CH] They're completely cynical about claiming him ...
21.26 [SH] Well, the other thing ...
21.27 [CH] in almost the same breath.
21.29 [SH] is that ... these ...
21.30 [DD] mm hmm
21.31 [SH] Every religious person stand ... feels the same criticism of other people's faith that we do, as atheists.
21.37 [CH] Yes.
21.38 [SH] I mean, they reject the pseudo miracles and the pseudo claims to certainty,
21.41 [DD] Yep, yep.
21.42 [SH] of others, and they see the confidence tricks in other people's faith,
21.46 [DD] Yep.
21.47 [SH] and they see it rather readily.
21.48 [SH] You know, every Christian knows the Koran can't be the perfect word of the creator of the universe,
21.52 [SH] and anyone who thinks it is, hasn't read it closely enough and it's just ... in this hermetically-sealed discourse that isn't really being self-critical.
21.58 [SH] Ah, and I think we ... we're on very strong ... we make a very strong case when we point that out,
22.04 [SH] and point out also that whatever people are experiencing, in church or in prayer, no matter how positive,
22.11 [SH] the fact that Buddhists and Hindus and Muslims and Christians are all experiencing it,
22.17 [SH] proves that it can't be matter of the divinity of Jesus, or the unique sanctity of the Koran, or ... because
21.24 [DD] 'Cause there's seventeen different ways of getting there, yeah.
22.26 [CH] By the way, on that, a tiny point. It's not ... I hope not a digression, it's ...
22.28 [CH] it's useful bearing that in mind, too, when you get, as I did this morning on ABC News,
22.33 [CH] the question "well, wouldn't you say religion did some good in the world, and there were good people?"
22.37 [CH] You never ... don't get that argument,
22.39 [CH] and by the way, there's no reason why one shouldn't, you say
22.42 [CH] "well, yes, I have indeed heard it said that Hamas provides social services in Gaza".
22.46 [SH] (laughs) Right.
22.47 [CH] And I've even heard it said that Farrakhan's group gets young, black men in prison off drugs.
22.50 [CH] I don't know if it's true, I'm willing to accept it might be ...
22.53 [SH] Right.
22.54 [CH] But it doesn't alter the fact that the one is a militarised, terrorist organisation with a fanatical anti-Semitic ideology, and the second is a racist, crackpot cult.
23.03 [SH] Yeah.
23.04 [CH] And I have no doubt that Scientology gets people off drugs, too.
23.07 [SH] Yeah.
23.08 [CH] But I ... my insistence always with these people is if you will claim it for one, you must accept it for them all.
23.14 [SH] And the other move you can make there ...
23.15 [CH] 'Cause if you don't it's flat-out dishonest.
23.17 [SH] You can invent an ideology, which by your mere invention in that moment, is obviously untrue, which would be quite useful if propagated, to billions. I mean ...
23.28 [CH] That's right.
23.29 [SH] You can say, ah, this is my new religion:
23.32 [SH] teach people to ... demand that your children study science and math and economics, and all of our terrestrial disciplines, to the best of their abilities,
23.40 [SH] and if they don't persist in those efforts, they'll be tortured after death by seventeen demons
23.45 (laughter).
23.46 [SH] This would be extremely useful, and maybe far more useful than Islam, propagated to billions,
23.50 [SH] and yet what are the chances that the seventeen demons exist?
23.54 [DD] Yeah.
23.55 [SH] You know, zero.
