Talk:Rogatio Sandbox
From Ancient Ways
Contents |
On light duty today
Just some notes after a reasonable read-through...
- Staff: As long as we're eliminating redundancies, every Magistrate except the Tribune has the right to appoint whatever administrative help he thinks he needs; shall we consolidate that one too?
- Tribune's Senate reports (aka 'weedwhackers'): Where are they!?!
- Senate and Magistrate qual's: I'm going to make the Senate wording a little clearer; I think your note puts it better than the actual clause. For the Magistrates, we're leaving it up to the Comitia? ...the same Comitia that still has yet to give our current office-holders real names? I don't think so. Let's put back the bit about activity/contribution...but we'll only say it once, in accord with our consolidation effort.
- Attaboys: A very important--in fact, the only real--reason for most Sodales to want to have a Senate around would be as a source of recognition for the just-plain-membership. Things like Patrician status, awards in contests (we used to have those), honorifics/agnomina and the like, which a member would have to get from somebody and can't very well confer upon himself. I include freshly-stepped-down Magistrates in this category, and in rare cases even sitting ones. Who's gonna declare Piscinus "Third Founder" for paying our hosting fees last year when the site bit the Big Red One?? He can't do it; we can't either, as most of us chipped in too and so we'd just end up forming a mutual-admiration society. If we had a Senate, composed of other people besides (just) us, it could happen...and nobody would have to schmooze up to a Curator to get a pat on the head.
- List (Album) maintenance: Realistically, this duty would have to be divided up between the Censor and the Aedilis, if not on paper than in practice. I may make this the subject of a separate rogatio or a Senatusconsultum; coordination between these two is critical. The Censor determines who's on a list, obviously; but, just as obviously, the Aedilis is going to have to be the one to put it up on the site and code in new names as the situation requires. We could, of course, classify this as part of the Aedilis' responsibility to "maintain the Web site", and indeed I regard it so. But as the Alba are, properly speaking, part of the Web site, maintenance of them is also an Aedile job, unless we redefine "maintain". So the Censor would approve names for inclusion, or designate names for excision, on these lists...but the actual doing so falls to the Aedilis, just 'cause he's the codemonger, and if he could have gotten anyone else interested in <tr><td><td><td><td><td><tr>, he'd have done it already. >({|;-P
Everything else meets with my strong approval! -- MariPere' 13:54, 27 February 2007 (EST)
Oops, some heavier duty
There, I've made changes in the Sandbox. Most of them are tweaks (spelling, capitalization, rephrasing some things, reordering others), and of course nothing's final; but I have majorly messed with a couple of things, so here they are:
- Tribune's role in the Senate: All Magistrates still have speaking parts; but I thought it a good idea to not have the Tribune propose motions or vote. Rationale: The Trib is there as a neutral observer. In his role as 'people's advocate', he would certainly have something to say, and must be able to say it. But to have him introduce proposals to the Senate, or vote there, introduces an element of bias. I can imagine what his Senate report will sound like if his pet motion gets defeated!
- Other Magistrates in the Senate: I've put question-marks on the right of the ex officio types to vote. Maybe some or all of them will get it; maybe they won't. But what it was looking like before I tweaked it was that four Magistrates were going to swamp an only five-member Senate, possibly overwhelming the latter with their charm, poise, and--oh yeah--auctoritas. I am of no fixed opinion about this; I have merely marked it out on the chart as an area for discussion.
- Censor and Aedilis are now an Album maintenance squadron, the Aedilis in a support capacity.
- I didn't do the Magistrate qualifications yet (assuming we decide to)
- I did add the bits about Magistrates' staffs (Trib can have one too) and about the Senate doing recognition.
So: Seen any good Legionary flyovers lately? >({|:-) <-- that's it; I'm changing my .sig!
Now we're getting somewhere!
So much for light duty!
I like all the points you made in "Light Duty" and will address the "Heavy Duty" stuff below...
What's the difference between (e) and (f)?
I intended "vote" to mean on resolutions. I intended "elections" to vote for candidates in office. Is this redundant? Should we either clarify further or eliminate the redundancy?
- Clarify. As in "The Consul shall call for votes on rogationes (vel whatever)..." and "The Consul shall convene the Comitia for elections of candidates...", also vel simile. -- >({|:-) 23:54, 27 February 2007 (EST)
>I will be a brat and leave the language about the Tribune's role in the Senate up to you.
Ok, Tribune's role in the Senate..I totally concur about the people's advocate thing...but, what if a newly elected Tribune is already a member of the Senate? Does he/she then have full rights? Does he/ she temporarily forgo those rights knowing they now have the power of intercessio against the Senate? If we do remove the power to vote, I definitely think they still need to be able to speak because they should be good little Tribunes and at least introduce new resolutions intended for the Comitia before beginning contio in the Comitia itself (We don't want any Gracchi or Saturnini now do we ;)?)
- Aww, c'mon, the Gracchi and the Saturnini of the world make things interesting! (Else that book would be called From the Metelli to Nero, nonne?)
- Na, actually I was thinking of bucking my own trend. You know how we've been tossing and turning about which Magistrates should or must be Senators? --Suppose we explicitly bar our Tribune from being a currently-sitting member of the Senate? He would have to give up his Senate seat, if he had one, for the duration of his Tribunate. Conflict of interest, don'tcha know. He could speak--heck, we'd have to make it up to the poor chap somehow! And he should be guaranteed reentry at the end of his hitch. But that's it. How's that for an outside observer?
- Yes, I'm cruel. Disciplina the Bitch-goddess bit me hard when I was wee small. Mater is still getting used to it. -- >({|:-) 23:54, 27 February 2007 (EST)
Other Magistrates in the Senate
You have a good point about overwhelming. Censor should vote, especially if considering qualifications of prospective Senators. Consul should vote unless you want to again consider the intercessio factor. Aedile's vote can be removed (I would certainly hope the Senate wouldn't vote for something that the Aedile thought was a super bad idea re: the running of the site or the boards)
- OK; Censor and Consul can vote. Aedilis doesn't have to; he can hack. <feg> Tribune shouldn't even attempt it (voting or hacking). There, that's everyone. -- >({|:-) 23:54, 27 February 2007 (EST)
....Hmmm, I'm having an ephiphany...how about right now while we are so small...we eliminate the position of Censor as an official elected in the Comitia AND make the Princeps Senatus and Censor one and the same (kinda reflecting the Censor being elected by the Comitia Centuriata (like in the Republic) instead of the Comitia Tributa. It could work like this:
1) Once the initial Senate-body is established, they decide amongst themselves who will be the Princeps/Censor. 2) The Princeps/Censor will serve a two-year term. 3) Princeps/Censor fills both functions. 4) At the end of the term they elect a new one.
By doing this we: 1) reduce the number of ex officio senators (and thus voting issues)and 2) give the Princeps a more important role. If we grow and need to separate the duties we can. Whadyya think? If you like it I can draft language or maybe I am crazy!
- This makes a kind of sense, on its own turf and in its own Severan/Marian way (which means it is crazy, dunnit? <g>)...but it'd be a bit of a shock to the Sodales, I think, who are just so used to voting for their Censores rather than having them hand-picked by a body of mostly-appointees. To the neo-Roman mind, the Censorship is still the most powerful position in Roman government, which makes it exactly the worst one to take out of the voters' hands. -- >({|:-) 23:54, 27 February 2007 (EST)
Love the new sig by the way!
- Thank'ee! -- >({|:-) 23:54, 27 February 2007 (EST)
Stray Magistrate concerns
- Bring back statement of qualifications--put this once at the beginning of the Magistrate section--basic qualification is a track-record of contribution to the Societas (no specifics needed).
- For Aedilis, must state somewhere that the individual needs tech smarts; it used to, but we disappeared it...
- Sole remaining Chart question-mark: Should the Aedilis be able to introduce motions in the Senate? -- >({|:-) 00:16, 28 February 2007 (EST)
REPLY:
NB: I have removed all of my previous Notes from the language and added new ones applicable to my comments below. I have not modified your notes in italics.
- Bring back statement of qualifications - DONE, See I.A.2
- For Aedilis, must state somewhere that the individual needs tech smarts - DONE, See I.A.2
- Sole remaining Chart question-mark...Aediles & Motions - I say "no". Let's keep it out for two reasons: 1) Simplicity of language - right now, in the language it only says that magistrates will sit ex officio, not what ex officio means. I will add a comment saying that Aediles and Tribunes can sit and speak but not introduce and vote 2) As long as Aediles can debate, someone else can introduce motions for them, most likely the Censor since they share some responsibilites. Changes have been made in the language and the chart. - DONE, See I.A.6. and the chart.
Damn We're Good!!!
[Stands somewhere tall, thumps chest, does Tarzan yell followed by Werewolf howl and war-whoop]
Have a look in the Sandbox, amice; if you see anything that needs refinement or cleaning-up, refine and clean. Other'n that (and as noted below), I think this thing is ready to become v3.0 of the Stolen Rules!!
Note baby-basic Tribune-->Senate report bit. The reason I left it in such bare condition is because, everywhere I've been that had Tribunes and a Senate, the question has come up of exactly how much of the Senate's proceedings should be made public. NR's Tribunes published the Senate agenda for each meeting, the votes if any, and maybe a paragraph of comment from each Senator who cared to make one. (They were not mandatory.) Other groups have left it at votes and agendae. The Senate does need to be able to talk about some things privately; although right now I can't imagine what, and we had way too much of that in the past anyway.
A Senator is not an elected official. He should have nothing to fear from a backlash against something he said. Not everything he says will become a Senatusconsultum; not every Senatusconsultum will stick once the Comitia gets a hold of it--they can overturn it with a rogatio at any time. It's a little like the Wiki: The Sodales don't like something, they can change it!
But there is that bit of debate; and we may want to discuss, then specify, what sorts of Senate business would go into that report. (We did have one or two Senate reports when the Societas was younger; they were posted to the Board, and might be worth looking up.) -- >({|:-) 13:13, 28 February 2007 (EST)
REPLY:
...Yes we are.
Everything looks great. I don't mean to tease, but I have to run out...I will share my thoughts on the tribune report thing in a couple of hours. Standby...
Added refined Tribune Senate Report Language
Ok, I have added some text in bold on tribune reports. Again, as you said, the goal is for the Tribune to give reports to the Comitia on the business of the Senate for transparency yet ensuring some sanctity of the actual proceedings and the Senators themselves. Modify as you see fit and feel free to go version 3 at your discretion.
Admin 17:03, 28 February 2007 (EST)
- It's beautiful as is! --I'll add the Tribune's Senate-report row to the Sandbox chart, then update the Stolen Rules and Stolen Rules Chart pages...most likely tonight or tomorrow. -- >({|:-) 19:38, 28 February 2007 (EST)
No Trib Senators?
Hei...what did you think about barring Tribunes from being sitting Senators or vice versa? I proposed it above, but didn't see any feedback... -- >({|:-) 14:13, 1 March 2007 (EST)
v3.0 is Up!!
I have updated the Stolen Rules and Stolen Rules Chart to reflect the changes that went into LINAMENTUM CEREBRIS v3.0 . I would also like to thank my fellow-editor, my mother, my agent, my puppy-dog, my wife (waitaminnit, I don't have a wife!!)...
*bows* *bows again*
...We'll just tweak it when we sort out the Tribunes. EVOE!! EUGE!!! IO, TRIUMPHE!!!!!! -- >({|:-) 14:36, 1 March 2007 (EST)
On Tribunes in the Senate
As always, I first fall back on what was done in the respublica. Per the Plebiscitum Atinium (probably 132 BC or so) it was established that by the nature of their office that Tribunes should be Senators (even though they long before had the right to be present, present rogatios, and of course veto). This was probably just a catch-all since most tribunes were quaestors first and almost always senators before or shortly after being quaestor...so, I say keep 'em in...unless, you want to further reduce the size of the ex officios in which in I am fine to keep them out formally and just let them sit on their Tribunician bench in the Curia! (as long as they can still be present, speak, and veto that is). Your call!
Version 3.0 looks great BTW...how much longer do you want to toss around here before considering proposing it in the Comitia.
Lastly, I recommend we clear the sandbox of the drafting language in case we want to work on a v. 4. Do you agree?
Admin 15:26, 1 March 2007 (EST)
- Tribs: They can sit. They can speak. They can veto. Just like my little dog! <g>
- Just to avoid messing with v3.0 any further, I'm almost inclined to leave the Tribunes as Senators...almost. But it's half past midnight, ordinarily peak hour for me, but I just got back from a rock concert, a group that Mater and I have wanted to see together since I was in high school. So...I'll come back to this tomorrow when my head isn't buzzing!
- Clear the Sandbox: Yes, please do! But not the Talk pages; we need the record of these discussions.
- Intro the puppy: After the Census. Maybe after everyone recovers from the shock of the Census. Maybe for our, or my, sixth anniversary after leaving Nova Roma. Maybe have the election over by the SVR's sixth birthday. The dates in question:
- Census: Officially ended today, but awaiting results of Timavus' efforts
- Post-Census: I'd give it two to four weeks. Two would bring us to the next significant date...
- SVR Conditores left NR in a mass resignation on the Ides of March. (Prolly don't want to start anything then.)
- Mari didn't make it out until 25 or 26 April.
- SVR site renewal is 31 May.
- So I'm mainly thinking late March to late April for an intro timeframe.
- I also need to show this to Scerio, see if we can get him behind it. I hope he'll find it close enough to his intent with the MCP to be acceptable; if he is enthusiastic, even better!
- (Has anyone else asked for an account on this Wiki?) -- >({|:-) 01:40, 2 March 2007 (EST)
Sandbox Cleared Et Cetera
I have cleared the sandbox, but left the talk page as is (as you can see since you are reading this!) I think your timeline sounds fine. I also think it is good to consult Scerio (I haven't seen him much lately though...). If the two of you are united I think the argument will be even more persuasive.
Sadly, no one else has asked for an account...
