Rogatio Sandbox

From Ancient Ways

Revision as of 19:34, 5 March 2007

Sandbox Article page cleared.  Talk page to remain as is. -Admin 04:10, 2 March 2007 (EST)

Sez You! <g>

We're Not Done Yet!

I've sent the proposed rogatio to Valerius Scerio and Horatius Piscinus for their review and input. (I've also offered them Edit privileges on the Wiki.) No word from Scerio just yet; but Piscinus likes it very much, with just a couple of questions. These deal with integrating the rogatio into our existing Regula:

• The rogatio provides for four Magistrates; the Regula, for up to seven Curatores. Assuming the Rogatio is intended to expand on, not replace, the Regula...what do we do with the other three Curatores, if the Sodales ever elect that many?

• Should the Senate section and the Magistrates section be presented as separate proposals?

• Should we make provision for increasing the number of Magistrates as the size or activity level of the Societas permits?

For myself, I don't know the answer (yet) to the first point.

On the second point, I'd rather not separate them, as the Magistrates' job-descriptions go into some detail about their roles in the Senate, which assumes that we'll have one for them. But if we did separate them, the Senate article could go first; our proposed Senate can exist without the Magistrates, but not vice versa. See Talk:Stolen Rules Chart for how this might (or might not?) work.

On the third point, it kicks the discussion back to a larger question implied in all the rest: Is this a rogatio or a(nother) Regula? --It is certainly expansive enough to be a new Regula (the Marian Reforms?? --Shades of my ancestors! <g>). However, to amend the one we have we'd still have to go through the Comitia. So I'm not treating this as a new round of Regula reform. I am treating it as an extreme flexion of Comitial musculature in the filling-in of all those blanks in the Reg we've got. You know--"What do we call the officers", "What do we have them do", "How much of what they do has to be ratified by the Comitia", etc.? -Yeah, those.

Anyway: If it's a Regula ("Razzles: Is It a Candy or a Gum?"), we'd need to install an amendment procedure. If it's a queen-size rogatio, then all the Sodales would have to do to change any part of it is present another rogatio.

Phew! ...This sounds like more work than it is, mainly because Mari blathers. I'll post further questions, both my own and others', as they arise. But we really did kinda forget to consider how to fit this thing into the Concilium Reform. My bad! --But I'm sturdy; I can take a hit!! -- >({|:-) 00:40, 5 March 2007 (EST)

"B-, b-, b-, baby, you just ain't seen na-, na-, nothin yet"

(I love BTO! --One time I dedicated that particular song to my first Poodle...who did indeed "look at me with her big brown eyes"!)

Sorry, I was listening to Bachman Turner Overdrive and thought it would make a good title for this heading. Anyway, I anticipated some of these questions might develop. I guess I've assumed for a long time that a new RF would eventually become necessary (hoping of course to get this rogatio passed and have the new Senate and officers from whence they came to chew the constitutional cud for awhile and develop a new RF for the comitia to ratify. Ideally, I think that is the way to go, but that assumes that your rogatio fits within the current RF (which I think it does (but just barely ;). If your rogatio exceeds the bounds of a normal measure then I don't think it would be too hard to make it an amendment to the current RF instead, but I think we should avoid that (at least for now) if possible.

Here are my thoughts on the questions you posed above:

*The rogatio provides for four Magistrates;...what do we do with the other three Curatores..."

I think this either is moot or can be made so within the bounds of our current RF. Here's why/how: The RF only says "No less than three and no more than seven officers may hold office at any one time", it doesn't say how the number shall be determined. So, the next time we have elections (hopefully for the renewed magisterial positions in your rogatio) since the Curatores are empowered to "oversee elections held in the Comitia" you simply announce that four positions will be elected which have been titled and assigned individual duties as defined by this rogatio and allowed under by IV.a of the RF: "The individual titles of the officers and their individual duties shall be established by the Comitia."

Actually, we did pound out how the number was to be determined: by how many candidates showed up. Vide Concilium discussions for what the US Supreme Court would call "the intent of the Framers". We know an SVR "officership" does not draw the crowds like a BTO concert or a Star Wars movie; people aren't lining up around the block for a seat in the Curia. (Nobody wants my job...which has me worried, as I intend to resume a full reenactor schedule next year. Maybe contact the employment office...?)

Given the trend, I doubt we'll see all seven chairs filled any time soon. But we still have to plan for them. And redefining the term "oversee" so drastically doesn't sit well with me. -- >({|:-) 12:22, 5 March 2007 (EST)

• Should the Senate section and the Magistrates section be presented as separate proposals?

hmmmmm, I would try to avoid this, only because as you have said, there are many links between the two and I'd hate for us to lose sight of the big picture but it is doable.

I concur on the nondesirability. My rogatio's tiny; c'mon, guys, you can swallow it whole...! -- >({|:-) 12:22, 5 March 2007 (EST)

*Should we make provision for increasing the number of Magistrates as the size or activity level of the Societas permits?

We did have this in there but then took it out. I felt comfortable removing it because I think we would need to have some exponential growth to justify more officers AND as I said earlier, I guess I always saw a new RF somewhere down the road that among filling in the rest of the holes would handle more officers as well.

In summary, IMO we should keep this as a single rogatio for now and keep in mind that a new RF will probably have to follow some day (before elections next year). If we cannot keep this as a single rogatio and/or we need to amend the RF I think we need to alter our approach slightly.

- Admin 08:55, 5 March 2007 (EST)

I am trying to avoid a new Regula if at all possible. I am sick to death of amending/replacing the damn thing every other year. I think the Sodales are too; we're not NR, we have plenty of things to talk about besides government. Besides--the current Regula has so many blanks in it, I think we can flesh it out without replacing the thing--or do people toss a form before filling it out? Piscinus' vision for the Regula was as a bare-bones template that the Comitia could add the content to. Rather like a Wiki that way...so let's think about editing the thing! -- >({|:-) 12:22, 5 March 2007 (EST)

"When E.F. Marius Talks...Severus listens."

Marius said:

Given the trend, I doubt we'll see all seven chairs filled any time soon. But we still have to plan for them. And redefining the term "oversee" so drastically doesn't sit well with me. -- >({|:-) 12:22, 5 March 2007 (EST)

Severus replies:

The easiest way to do this me thinks is to add a line as such (New language in bold):

1. The magistrates of the Society shall be one (1) Consul, one (1) Censor, one (1) Aedilis, and one (1) Tribune. One (1) additional Consul, Censor, and Aedilis position may be created as approved by the Comitia so that no less than three and no more than seven officers may hold office at any one time.

Tweak or counter as you see fit.

Marius said:

I am trying to avoid a new Regula if at all possible. I am sick to death of amending/replacing the damn thing every other year. I think the Sodales are too; we're not NR, we have plenty of things to talk about besides government. Besides--the current Regula has so many blanks in it, I think we can flesh it out without replacing the thing--or do people toss a form before filling it out? Piscinus' vision for the Regula was as a bare-bones template that the Comitia could add the content to. Rather like a Wiki that way...so let's think about editing the thing! -- >({|:-) 12:22, 5 March 2007 (EST)

Severus replies: That works for me!!!