Mod-player interaction (Kali)

Dear Kali,

I meant to write you sooner, but I kept opening my drafts by quoting Princess Leia in "Star Wars: A New Hope". As that's neither constructive nor fair, I decided to wait. Too put it plainly, I've come to believe that Frank and Kali tell other characters how to play their characters without going OOC. It looks like the mods' characters also mod Sages and that this comes across as ic/ooc boundary blurring. It also comes across as bullying.

While you're not responsible for how people feel, I think you are responsible for the environment at Sages. It appears to me, that moderating operations at Sages contribute to IC actions having OOC consequences and vice versa. In my never humble enough opinion (I admit), characters that I believe to be played by you from information gleamed from lj userinfo's (i.e., orophingloss, kali921, Frank Castle, & melian the maia) support one another in critisizing people's in character play. It's very hard to tell when one of those characters is playing their own interest, the typist's interests. Part of this may be because OOC threads tend to vanish. Some 'suggested rules' are enforced more with some characters than with others. Modding at Sages isn't transparent. It looks like the character/mods have clear favorites.

What has happened at brps, with edana's post and nemesis ascending looks like more bullying from me as well as underhanded application of social pressure. People who think that moderating at sages have a problem have been targeted for semi-public and public unpleasantness.

I like Sages. I enjoy it. I spend a great deal of time there for entertainment purposes, but, I've noticed players get told how to play their characters by other characters. I recommend that you open an OOC thread on Sages, declare amnesty on all posters and invite those who are concerned that IC and OOC are distinctions the mods fail to express their thoughts and feelings. I cannot emphasize this enough, but I think all those comments should be screened to the mods and the posters only. I also suggest that another thread be opened up for IC/OOC issues regarding non-mods to be addressed.

This is just my two cents. I think what happened over at lj comm bad_rpers_sucks has been brewing. I guessed that any of three different typists/characters could fit the description of what was in there. It looks like bullying to me from the mods. It really does. When you showed up to rebuke Edana for her shit-stirring, and others from Sages also did, it prooved some of her points.

Going by the most recent post in brps regarding Sages (from nemesis ascends) I get the impression that if the people who had problems with Sages absented themselves from Sages the problem would be solved from one perspective. How difficult would it be to do better than this? To be inclusive and more flexible? To work with people who are having difficulties rather than labeling them as troublemakers, demanding that they shut up about their thoughts and feelings on the subject in any venue unacceptable to the mods, and otherwise telling them to go away?

How can this be fixed?

sincerely, shiratorijun-shaped

Dear Jun,

Thanks for writing. The moderators will look over your letter again and respond after we've considered what you have to say. I wanted to respond to a few things right away.

Camwyn showed me the transcript of the conversation she had with you a couple of weeks ago, and I attempted to IM you twice to talk about it. Thanks for writing.

Firstly, as a general personal statement, *who I write is my own business.* I have never disclosed who I write publicly. Who anyone writes is their own business. I would not assume who writes who at Sages; the answers may surprise you greatly. My personal philosophy (and that of four of the moderators) is that until we disclose publicly who we write, we request that our anonymity be respected. Characters invoke other characaters all of the time at Sages and that does not mean that the characters are linked or written by the same person. Ollie invokes Hal and Frank, Constantine invokes Ollie, Constantine invokes Frank, Frank invokes Stewie, Legolas invokes Orophin, and vice versa. Happens all of the time, and has since the very beginning. I can show you numerous posts where other characters do this. Just as I would never disclosed who you write if you disclosed it to me unless you stated it publicly on Sages, I expect the same courtesy.

As I said, you're mistaken in some of your assumptions of who writes who. Also, some of the characters at Sages are written by more than one person.

It has long been our practice at Sages that occasionally the mods will respond to a situation that in our judgement requires a moderator first in character. If the situation escalates, than we go out of character. We totally agree with your sentiment that this is very confusing for players, and this complaint has been brought up before. This issue has been discussed amongst the moderators since the beginning of the community and we've been trying to make it clear when our response is IC and when it is OOC, but have completely failed on occasion, and we feel that this is an absolute legitimate concern of the players. All of the mods have done this upon occasion. We've been discussing it last week again, and we'll absolutely do better on this, and make it clear when something is a OOC statement by a moderator, so that IC and OOC confusion doesn't exist. Believe me, we know we haven't done a good job on this.

"What has happened at brps, with edana's post and nemesis ascending looks like more bullying from me as well as underhanded application of social pressure. People who think that moderating at sages have a problem have been targeted for semi-public and public unpleasantness."

Are you stating that what happened at BRS is my responsibility, or that I had anything to do with this? I think people were quite direct in agreeing or disagreeing with what she and the other poster had to say, and I personally did not perceive anything underhanded about it. I think people have a perfect right to comment on any BRS post and agree or disagree.

As for the "environment" of Sages, to put it in perspective, the community now has 1300 members. The vast majority have no issue with how the community is run and do not care about the small number of occasional player conflicts, or aren't aware of them, and are there to have a good time. I'll have to disagree that there is overall a negative environment. However, this is not to say that your concerns aren't valid, and we'll take care to consider them and work out a solution, because you clearly feel that it is, and that's not good.

I am at a loss about your statement that the moderators play favorites; if you can cite specific examples that would help us a lot, and we can look at the situation, and address that. We certainly don't mean to.

I am a long time member of BRS, as are all of the other mods and numerous other players on BRS. My statement to Edana was meant to try to open dialogue, as she had not contacted me directly. I do not believe I rebuked her. I do not believe based on private communication with her that she feels it was a rebuke on my part. I simply wished to speak to her to try to allay her concerns.

Regarding your conversation with Camwyn, I agree with you that I should have make it clear right away OOC that your physical attack on Greg was out of bounds, in that traditionally in RPing in my experience, physical attacks are stated as attempts, rather than writing that the action has succeeded in affecting the player physically. The player was not comfortable with your hitting his character, and immediately IMed me to tell me so; this is why I responded to the situation. However, I absolutely should have made that clear right away OOC, and for that I sincerely apologize. In general I'm finding from the e-mails I get at Sages that some players aren't enjoying character interaction that is extremely hostile and/or involves physical violence and/or if they aren't involved are not enjoying reading it when it occurs between other characters. This has been a recent trend in the community, and players that have been there since the beginning aren't enjoying it. If you perceive a negative environment at Sages, I think this may occasionally contribute.

We'll respond in more detail later. Thanks for writing, and I mean that sincerely. Direct communication does solve most issues.

Hope you are well. Also, the e-mail address that should be used for the moderators is now sages_moderators AT yahoo.com

Thanks,

Kali

Dear Jun,

Thanks for writing.

You're welcome.

The moderators will look over your letter again and respond after we've considered what you have to say. I wanted to respond to a few things right away.

Camwyn showed me the transcript of the conversation she had with you a couple of weeks ago, and I attempted to IM you twice to talk about it.

I was away from the keyboard when you hailed me. I pinged you back in response but I believe you were offline or away from keyboard.

Thanks for writing.

You're welcome.

Firstly, as a general personal statement, *who I write is my own business.*

This is very true.

I have never disclosed who I write publicly.

You may not have but, I recall reading a thread where the typist of Kali copped to being the typist for Frank. Couldn't dig it up now -- I didn't save it to memories when I saw it. Those threads were clipped.

I've outted myself as the same typist for some other puppets at Sages. In the threads where I did that, in response to the comments in which I did that, it should be clear to those who were reading the threads who else I-as-Junmun was playing.

Who anyone writes is their own business.

Unless he or she outs herself. Now, I farmed out some characters/puppets to others because of that, but the association is made.

I would not assume who writes who at Sages; the answers may surprise you greatly.

I've been surprised.

My personal philosophy (and that of four of the moderators) is that until we disclose publicly who we write, we request that our anonymity be respected. Characters invoke other characaters all of the time at Sages and that does not mean that the characters are linked or written by the same person.

This is true. But if I mistakenly respond to a comment directed to Jun as if I were Jun, in Jun's 'voice' as another one of my characters? I've been outed.

Ollie invokes Hal and Frank, Constantine invokes Ollie, Constantine invokes Frank, Frank invokes Stewie, Legolas invokes Orophin, and vice versa. Happens all of the time, and has since the very beginning. I can show you numerous posts where other characters do this.

I've read many of these.

Just as I would never disclosed who you write if you disclosed it to me unless you stated it publicly on Sages, I expect the same courtesy.

You've never publically disclosed who else I write but I wouldn't be surprised if you knew. I also wouldn't hold it against you if you told other people. Not that I think anyone's particularly interested. So,

As I said, you're mistaken in some of your assumptions of who writes who. Also, some of the characters at Sages are written by more than one person.

• nods*

I'm aware of that also. Sometimes I play other characters for someone else.

It has long been our practice at Sages that occasionally the mods will respond to a situation that in our judgement requires a moderator first in character.

That's why I wrote you. I think it's problematic and it doesn't always serve the interest of harmony among players in the game.

If the situation escalates, than we go out of character. We totally agree with your sentiment that this is very confusing for players, and this complaint has been brought up before. This issue has been discussed amongst the moderators since the beginning of the community and we've been trying to make it clear when our response is IC and when it is OOC, but have completely failed on occasion, and we feel that this is an absolute legitimate concern of the players.

Thank you for that.

All of the mods have done this upon occasion. We've been discussing it last week again, and we'll absolutely do better on this, and make it clear when something is a OOC statement by a moderator, so that IC and OOC confusion doesn't exist.

I've noticed improvement to that end.

Believe me, we know we haven't done a good job on this.

"What has happened at brps, with edana's post and nemesis ascending looks like more bullying from me as well as underhanded application of social pressure. People who think that moderating at sages have a problem have been targeted for semi-public and public unpleasantness."

Are you stating that what happened at BRS is my responsibility, or that I had anything to do with this?

I think the response from Kali to take it off the board and deal with the moderators privately is what prompted other sage players to come in and rebuke Edana for speaking. It appeared to be the closing of ranks around Edana. In effect, you and others gathered at the post to shut Edana up.

I think people were quite direct in agreeing or disagreeing with what she and the other poster had to say, and I personally did not perceive anything underhanded about it.

Actually, this is true. The disagreement was very direct. I mistyped.

I think people have a perfect right to comment on any BRS post and agree or disagree.

Rights are one thing -- courtesy is another. It's one thing for one of your characters to be rude to another character. That's part of what makes it fun. It's another thing for a character to come down on a player or another character because of something an actual player or character has done. This may be a right, but it is discourteous. No one's perfect of course and the ad hominem attacks on your person are discourteous though the people who have taken offense may be in their right. Having the right to deride you -- publically or privately -- doesn't make it right for them to do so. Having the right to tell someone to shut up in a forum they've chose to vent or rant may be your right as community moderator and subscriber to b_r_s but it may not be right.

I've got a lot of nerve to presume on right and wrong but, if you'd bare with me, maybe we'll both come out of it more in agreement?

As for the "environment" of Sages, to put it in perspective, the community now has 1300 members. The vast majority have no issue with how the community is run and do not care about the small number of occasional player conflicts, or aren't aware of them, and are there to have a good time.

This is true that many players don't care about the small number of occasional player conflicts. But, some of those playing have many characters in the game. I don't think anyone has been at sages for reasons other than having a good time. Please help me understand. Do you mean for me to believe that while I'm in the minority, my concerns have no weight with you other than what you give it? That all my concerns -- other than the ooc/ic mod-style -- are of no interest to you?

I'll have to disagree that there is overall a negative environment.

I'll concede that there are players who enjoy themselves and consider it a positive environment.

However, this is not to say that your concerns aren't valid, and we'll take care to consider them and work out a solution, because you clearly feel that it is, and that's not good.

Okay. Thank you for that. I do appreciate that.

I am at a loss about your statement that the moderators play favorites; if you can cite specific examples that would help us a lot, and we can look at the situation, and address that. We certainly don't mean to.

The examples I cited are in the log I sent to other Sage mods. I believe you have them in your possession. If you find you do not, I would gladly resend the links to you.

I am a long time member of BRS, as are all of the other mods and numerous other players on BRS. My statement to Edana was meant to try to open dialogue, as she had not contacted me directly. I do not believe I rebuked her. I do not believe based on private communication with her that she feels it was a rebuke on my part. I simply wished to speak to her to try to allay her concerns.

Okay. From what I read in BRS, I believed her to have been rebuked by the mod and owner of the community for discussing the matter at BRS.

Regarding your conversation with Camwyn, I agree with you that I should have make it clear right away OOC that your physical attack on Greg was out of bounds, in that traditionally in RPing in my experience, physical attacks are stated as attempts, rather than writing that the action has succeeded in affecting the player physically.

Well and good, then. I'm glad we are in agreement here.

The player was not comfortable with your hitting his character, and immediately IMed me to tell me so; this is why I responded to the situation. However, I absolutely should have made that clear right away OOC, and for that I sincerely apologize.

I gratefully accept your apology.

In general I'm finding from the e-mails I get at Sages that some players aren't enjoying character interaction that is extremely hostile and/or involves physical violence and/or if they aren't involved are not enjoying reading it when it occurs between other characters.

Perhaps there should be announcement of a rule reflecting this?

This has been a recent trend in the community, and players that have been there since the beginning aren't enjoying it. If you perceive a negative environment at Sages, I think this may occasionally contribute.

This also seems like there is an unwritten rule the, about what play needs are acceptable and what aren't. I can't help but wonder if my post as Jun regarding why so many of the bad guys at Sages weren't ghosts of bad guys reflects old-timer disquiet with newcomers.

We'll respond in more detail later.

I hadn't seen anything yet, so I posted this reply in the hopes that might speed things along.

Sincerely,

Jun-mun

Dear Jun,

Just a polite reminder – the sages_moderators@yahoo.com address is now the best address to reach us, as that gets checked the most frequently.  :-) This is Kali typing to you now, on behalf of all of the other Mods.

Apologies for taking so long to get back to you. Two of the moderators are dealing with illnesses in their immediate families right now, and we are frankly behind and overwhelmed. Please don't take this personally.

Yes, sending us the transcript of your conversations with the moderators would be helpful. We can't dig it up right now.  :-(

I was away from the keyboard when you hailed me. I pinged you back in response but I believe you were offline or away from keyboard.

Ok, thanks for letting me know.

"Firstly, as a general personal statement, *who I write is my own business.*"

This is very true.

"I have never disclosed who I write publicly."

You may not have but, I recall reading a thread where the typist of Kali copped to being the typist for Frank. Couldn't dig it up now

That would not have occurred. I've never done that on Sages, and as a rule I do not do that except to the other Moderators and people close to me. In addition, I no longer write Frank; he's been taken over by someone else. In addition, the mods cohabitate with other people who also write or cowrite characters along with them. (Editor’s note #1)

I've outted myself as the same typist for some other puppets at Sages. In the threads where I did that, in response to the comments in which I did that, it should be clear to those who were reading the threads who else I-as-Junmun was playing.

I have no idea who else you are playing, and consider i none of my business until you tell me or state it publicly. In addition, I do not and would not take time to investigate who else you play by going to character LJs, comparing contact, information, etc., in a deliberate attempt to out you, and then come to you and state to you who I believe that you write. This is my personal philosophy of RPing (although I don't expect everyone else to feel the same way). I always respect the privacy of others. Your philosophy may differ, but I request that my privacy be respected, as do the other Moderators. Also, point of clarification: just because someone has the same e-mail address does not mean that they write the same character, for reasons stated above. For example, this e-mail address is accessible by more than one moderator.

Unless he or she outs herself. Now, I farmed out some characters/puppets to others because of that, but the association is made.

I would agree, unless the outing is *accidental,* and not deliberate. If someone does it accidentally, I consider it none of my business.

I'm aware of that also. Sometimes I play other characters for someone else.

Sometimes it's fun to share characters. :-)

That's why I wrote you. I think it's problematic and it doesn't always serve the interest of harmony among players in the game.

I addressed this, and entirely agree with you, and stated that we'd do our best to cessate this immediately. We agree.

"Are you stating that what happened at BRS is my responsibility, or that I had anything to do with this?"

I think the response from Kali to take it off the board and deal with the moderators privately is what prompted other sage players to come in and rebuke Edana for speaking. It appeared to be the closing of ranks around Edana. In effect, you and others gathered at the post to shut Edana up.

I disagree. I posted a comment to her to ask her to communicate with me. I did not have her e-mail address at that time. She did subsequently communicate with me right away. It also commonly happens that when someone posts on BRS and wanks someone else, sometimes the person that is being discussed is a member of the community, and will respond. It is perfectly within someone's right to do that, and disagree with someone else's assessment of the situation. Try to put yourself in someone else's shoes: if you were personally attacked in a public post on LJ, would you ignore it and not respond at all, if you felt that communication to resolve the problem might be productive?

I did not "gather" anyone at the post to disagree. Other community members of Sages read BRS, and disagreed with her. You'll note that some of them were people that have also had disagreements with the mods, but still disagreed with her overall assessment of the situation.

You've made a very strong accusation against me of trying to "shut someone up." Frankly, it's incorrect, and I would *never* accuse you of the same without the benefit of the doubt. I don't think that's a productive way of you dialoging with me, to be frank. People expressed concern that by Edana posting on BRS, when so many Sages members *read* BRS, she would start a feud. They did not tell her not to post. What they seemed to express is that they felt that she should communicate with the mods. She had a perfect right to post on BRS. People had a perfect right to respond.

Rights are one thing -- courtesy is another. It's one thing for one of your characters to be rude to another character. That's part of what makes it fun. It's another thing for a character to come down on a player or another character because of something an actual player or character has done. This may be a right, but it is discourteous.

Isn't this exactly what you are doing here, with me? Coming down on me for what you perceive my character as doing, and coming down on me as a player? Accusing me of dishonesty and censorship? Isn't this exactly what Edana did? If you are going to state that, my perception is that you are applying one standard to me, and another standard entirely to Indigo, Edana, and yourself, which is precisely what you in turn seem to state that I am doing: holding a double standard.

Additionally, in my mind, good RPing is a two way street, and good communication between players is essential. If a player is uncomfortable with another character's interaction with their character, or another player, it can escalate the situation to not communicate with the other player about it, and resolve it. It's always how I've RPed, and a pretty standard thing. Communication solves most problems, in my own experience. (Editor’s note #2)

This may be a right, but it is discourteous. No one's perfect of course and the ad hominem attacks on your person are discourteous though the people who have taken offense may be in their right. Having the right to deride you -- publically or privately -- doesn't make it right for them to do so. Having the right to tell someone to shut up in a forum they've chose to vent or rant may be your right as community moderator and subscriber to b_r_s but it may not be right.

I'm confused by the wording here - can you clarify? Also, perceptions of what is right and wrong are often subjective.

Please help me understand. Do you mean for me to believe that while I'm in the minority, my concerns have no weight with you other than what you give it? That all my concerns -- other than the ooc/ic mod-style -- are of no interest to you?

Absolutely not; I am listening to you, agreeing with some of what you say and your perceptions, If I was not interested, I would not take the time to reply.

I'll concede that there are players who enjoy themselves and consider it a positive environment.

There are almost fifteen hundred comm members now.. A total of three have complained about the Moderators with issues similar to yours, and we do take any communication like this seriously (I'm not counting the complaints that come in from one player about another). I'm trying to put things in perspective; I'm also trying to address your concerns, so that your experience in the community is a positive one.

Perhaps there should be announcement of a rule reflecting this?

We'll consider this, because it's a good suggestion, because we have so many new members. We never had to address this before, since the first few hundred community members always played at Sages more for comedy (which is still the case the majority of the time), and took the character hostility into private RPing. Please understand that if we post a rule stating what we feelt he "spirit" of the community is, that also may present problems, because that's also subjective. We have to consider that. No matter what we do, it's always going to be a lot of work for the mods, but hey, that's our job, right?  :-)

This also seems like there is an unwritten rule the, about what play needs are acceptable and what aren't. I can't help but wonder if my post as Jun regarding why so many of the bad guys at Sages weren't ghosts of bad guys reflects old-timer disquiet with newcomers.

Here I'm at a loss; can you clarify? I have no idea what you mean here. Thanks, and I hope you write back, so we can address this.

We really are listening to you, and thank you for bringing us your concerns. We knew Sages would be very popular when we started the community, but didn't realize how quickly it would explode and outpace so many other communities on LJ. We're really gratified, and again, the quality of writing there is so exquisitely good. The community is only as good as the members make it, and if Sages is good, it's due to you and the others. WE also love the serious RPing that gets spawned by what happens on Sages, because we do occsionally check to see what's happening in other communities that were created as places for more serious RPing to take place outside the community (spira, patchwork_earth, etc).

I do *like* Jun, by the way, and it would be fun to have some *positive* character interaction with her.

:-)

Thanks,

Kali and the Mods

Two of the moderators are dealing with illnesses in their immediate families right now, and we are frankly behind and overwhelmed. Please don't take this personally.

I won't. I've been aware of askollieandhal's difficulties for some time now.

Yes, sending us the transcript of your conversations with the moderators would be helpful. We can't dig it up right now.  :-(

Sorry for the delay. They won't be coming in this email because I'm having difficulty getting to those files.

"I was away from the keyboard when you hailed me. I pinged you back in response but I believe you were offline or away from keyboard."

Ok, thanks for letting me know.

You're welcome.

"You may not have but, I recall reading a thread where the typist of Kali copped to being the typist for Frank. Couldn't dig it up now"

That would not have occurred. I've never done that on Sages, and as a rule I do not do that except to the other Moderators and people close to me. In addition, I no longer write Frank; he's been taken over by someone else. In addition, the mods cohabitate with other people who also write or cowrite characters along with them.

I'll make it a point not to concern myself with who you may or may not write then.

"I think the response from Kali to take it off the board and deal with the moderators privately is what prompted other sage players to come in and rebuke Edana for speaking. It appeared to be the closing of ranks around Edana. In effect, you and others gathered at the post to shut Edana up."

I disagree. I posted a comment to her to ask her to communicate with me. I did not have her e-mail address at that time. She did subsequently communicate with me right away. It also commonly happens that when someone posts on BRS and wanks someone else, sometimes the person that is being discussed is a member of the community, and will respond. It is perfectly within someone's right to do that, and disagree with someone else's assessment of the situation. Try to put yourself in someone else's shoes: if you were personally attacked in a public post on LJ, would you ignore it and not respond at all, if you felt that communication to resolve the problem might be productive?

If I felt that I was on the defense I probably would respond. I also would place my email address there for that person to address me. Edana was complaining about the board and she didn't identify the board. In my view, which of course is limited by my perspective, she critiqued how her friend was being treated by the mods. She addressed what she saw as problematic behavior on your part. How does critisizing a mod's behavior equal attacking a mod as a person?

I did not "gather" anyone at the post to disagree. Other community members of Sages read BRS, and disagreed with her.

Then they gathered at that post to critisize her for voicing her criticism. It was hard to tell if they or you were posting as the mod, the character, or the character's friends. What did appear to happen was that someone had attracted a great deal of negative attention for voicing her opinion of an unnamed game and an unnamed mod.

You'll note that some of them were people that have also had disagreements with the mods, but still disagreed with her overall assessment of the situation.

Yes. This is true. But I'm of the opinion that as it was unclear why they were there -- if they were there in official or unofficial Sages capacity it would have been far better if you had dissuaded them from making it their business even when they had a right to making it their business.

You've made a very strong accusation against me of trying to "shut someone up." Frankly, it's incorrect, and I would *never* accuse you of the same without the benefit of the doubt.

I'm not much for adding water to vinegar. I think you've a great concept and a good idea, but I have told you how it appears to me. I'd like to be wrong. You may not have made it a point to 'shut someone up' but the net effect of your posts and the posts of others in that particular posts, at nexus tales, and in Yvaine's journals -- to name some spots -- has had the effect of shutting up people unless they're writing in the privacy of their own journals' locked posts.

I don't think that's a productive way of you dialoging with me, to be frank.

Would you like for me to not tell you what I think or feel about this situation? How will you know what my concerns are or even address them if I don't share them with you in the same terms I think of them? What would you prefer to my candor? If I'm going to think it, I'm going to say it.

Please give me the benefit of the doubt that I don't hate you or think you a useless human being. For all I know, we're real life friends who've lost touch. You could be someone I love. You could also be somebody who owes me money. Whatever, you could be *anybody*. That I don't care about beyond not wanting to be rude or disprespectful because you could be someone I like or love in rl.

I do care that at times I can't tell the difference if you're being high-handed as a goddess or high-handed as the creator of an rpg. I. Can't. Tell. And when 'Kali921' shows up at brps, nexus_tales, or other players' journals to comment, rebuke, or snark I'm less inclined to think that's the goddess-Kali as played by you and more inclined to think it's the mun behind Kali who's carrying on like that.

I'm trying not to make assumptions here but it appears that you don't want to read my thoughts if they offend your sensibilities. Of course, this is your privilege and your right. Perhaps it would be best if you told me what you would consider productive communication. If you will share that with me, perhaps I can wed candor to what you consider to be courtesy and this communication will continue fruitfully rather than get bogged down in defensiveness and impatience.

My thanks,

Jun-mun

I think it's time to turn the discussion towards solutions.

I've read this e-mail a few times now, and I'm frankly still seeing some inconsistencies. I'm just not sure what you want at this point, as we seem to be in a cycle of discussing events that transpired months ago at this point. I've agreed with some of your points, apologized to you where I agreed with you, and I'm still being accused of not listening to you. If I was not listening, I would not spend the time reading your e-mails carefully (an hour reading and reading again, thinking, making notes), thinking, and responding to what you say.

I'm just not sure what you want at this point. Just because we may disagree on certain things does not mean that I *am not listening.* So, to get down to the nitty gritty: what is it that you want to see? What is it that you think will make the situation better? Let's turn the discussion to solutions, as I say above. I think this will be more positive.

Yes. This is true. But I'm of the opinion that as it was unclear why they were there -- if they were there in official or unofficial Sages capacity it would have been far better if you had dissuaded them from making it their business even when they had a right to making it their business.

If I'd told players to not go to BRS, then you'd be asking me to moderate actions outside a community that I moderate, which you in turn have criticized me, I believe, for supposedly doing. I did not sit there the entire night and monitor that discussion. I responded and left for a few hours. I did not orchestrate the other players going there, and goad them on. I was physically *away* from my PC after my initial comment to Edana for quite some time.

In short, Jun player, I have *no* idea what you want at this point. There seems to a lot of finger pointing at me. I'm willing to work with you and if you have solutions to propose, by all means propose them, and let's resolve this and get you comfortable again if at all possible.

As for "shutting up" Edana, she did, to be fair, continue to participate in the discussion at BRS, as well in numerous other places. You've said to me that I have no control over people's perceptions of me and that's true. The reverse is true. You have no control over mine. Perceptions are changed by direct communication.

Judging by the amount of people that contacted me via IM (seven, none of whom had spoken to me before OOC), saying that they in turn had been contacted in turn by Edana and her "friends" (such as Indigo, Epona, and others), before, during, and after this BRS episode, I am sure she was not "shut up." These people went on to express their discomfort with what they described as Edana & Co.'s attempt to "evangelize" a feud with certain moderators at Sages (me, and one other), an attempt to dissuade them from continuing to participate at Sages, join dear_multiverse, as well as other things that made them uncomfortable. It seems that there has been a concerted effort to draw people into partisanship and feuding when they simply want to enjoy themselves gaming at Sages, be left alone, be left out of feuding, and be left out of drama. These actions have conflated rumors that are simply untrue.

If I felt that I was on the defense I probably would respond. I also would place my email address there for that person to address me.

Edana knew our e-mail address; it's listed on the user info page, and has been announced numerous times in posts to the Sages community. I guess it never occurred to me to do that. She has been a long time member of the community and knew how to contact us. I would not feel comfortable place my personal e-mail in a public community with hundreds of members. So there, we will simply have to disagree about our personal reactions to a situation.

How does critisizing a mod's behavior equal attacking a mod as a person?

Some remarks she made were very personal, and she later edited them out, when it was pointed out to her that she was going on information that was false. She's continued to make very personal attacks against me; I see transcripts of the IM conversations that she's had with a few people, who have contacted me to say "this has gone too far", etc.

It was hard to tell if they or you were posting as the mod, the character, or the character's friends. What did appear to happen was that someone had attracted a great deal of negative attention for voicing her opinion of an unnamed game and an unnamed mod.

I believe everyone there was posting as themselves. No one else commenting there has any "official" capacity at Sages. I posted as myself, asking her to contact us to resolve her problem. That may not have been clear.

Yes. This is true. But I'm of the opinion that as it was unclear why they were there -- if they were there in official or unofficial Sages capacity it would have been far better if you had dissuaded them from making it their business even when they had a right to making it their business.

I addressed this above. You're asking me to moderate the actions of people in another community 1) when I wasn't even *aware* of what they were doing until later, and 2) doing the very thing that I've been criticized for doing previously. I do not think this is fair.

You may not have made it a point to 'shut someone up' but the net effect of your posts and the posts of others in that particular posts, at nexus tales, and in Yvaine's journals -- to name some spots -- has had the effect of shutting up people unless they're writing in the privacy of their own journals' locked posts.

Pause to consider this: the threads at Nexus_tales were meant in humor. I will respond when people discuss me in a public place and state things that are wildly untrue. As I said, in my first comment I said it was a way to clear up some misconceptions. Then others joined in, who were thought to me, and we had a lot of fun. Frankly, we did that in HUMOR. We certainly did not mean to censor anyone. If that was the net effect, it is regrettable. Frankly, at the time were laughing at how absurd the rumor mill can get, and how distorted things have gotten from a few people. You'll note that a few uninvolved players posted agreeing that humor was a good way to handle the situation. Unfortunately, some people took this to mean that we were pissed at them, and we've been working hard to correct that notion.

I have problems with NONE of the people that participated in the OOC gossip in that post. I am over any initial discomfort, and have asked other players to leave the issue alone. I have made it very clear to the participants in private AND PUBLIC communications that they are welcome at Sages, and that the incident is put behind us, and will not be mentioned again to them. I left comments in JP mun's Siryn journal stating that, and the mods wrote the player *twice* reassuring her that the whole thing is over, and that she's welcome at Sages.

You'll note that the moderator of nexus_tales commented to the post that she was not happy with the OP, and she felt it was inappropriate to be posting in her community OOC gossip about other people.

I get the feeling that when/if I'm discussed publicly, you actually wish to censor *me* from responding in any way. I feel that's a bit unfair.

I *do* appreciate your candor. However, I'm feeling that you're a bit quick to judge me by another standard than other people. Frankly, rumor mills have gotten out of control amongst a small amount of players, conflating in a way far larger that you've accused me of. Some of the things that are being said are patently untrue, distortions, and willfully hurtful. AT this point, *I* am starting to feel bullied and censored, and attacks *are* getting very personal.

Whatever, you could be *anybody*. That I don't care about beyond not wanting to be rude or disprespectful because you could be someone I like or love in rl.

I assure you, we do not know each other. But I thank you for the sentiments, nonetheless. :-)

I do care that at times I can't tell the difference if you're being high-handed as a goddess or high-handed as the creator of an rpg. I. Can't. Tell. And when 'Kali921' shows up at brps, nexus_tales, or other players' journals to comment, rebuke, or snark I'm less inclined to think that's the goddess-Kali as played by you and more inclined to think it's the mun behind Kali who's carrying on like that.

Let me be absolutely clear: If I show up in any other place to comment about Sages or Sages related issues, it is as *myself*, OOC. If I show up at BRS, nexus_tales, etc., it is as *myself.* Not as Kali a character. As for snarking? Honestly, do you apply the same standard to your cohorts that are upset and personally attacking me as you do me? Such as when players and individuals leave anonymous comments in my own journals stating that they are players, calling me "crazy," and telling me that I'm "going to be hunted and watched" - or post that on Sages, as Gar's player did on Friday, twice? Or follow other players that do not have issues with the moderation into their journals and attack them? Or follow another moderator into their journal, and insist they are me, and then continue with accusations of insanity? At this point, the conflation of *your* group of people has all three active mods working for hours trying to correct untruths, sort out fact, talk to people, and deal with concerns in as productive a way as possible. Honestly, it's absurd, and there are factual errors out there, such as who I write, or that I have *family* members going onto other people's journals and attacking them, etc. It is getting ridiculous. The lack of willingness to listen to another perspective is mind boggling. That's why I am trying VERY hard to listen to you here, and keep what you say in mind.

As for JP's mun, since I am sure you are speaking partially of this, the moderators *never* admonished him or spoke to him OOC in any hostile fashion in the player's various guises her *entire time at Sages.* The player wrote us complaining about comments being made on Sages (NOT directed at the player, I might add) regarding the nexus_tales post, and then six hours later pulled out of Sages without giving us time to respond. When I finally read the player's e-mail, I immediately asked the other players to cease those comments, and they did, and apologized for the incident, and assured them that they were welcome at Sages.

What we have done in light of player concerns over the past six weeks:

1. We have made modifications to our moderation in light of your complaints and the suggestions of others.

2. I opened up the community for discussion on Friday, and invited questions, comments, and concerns. Some responded on the board, others responded privately. The mods are thinking about and going to address ALL of the issues and questions raised.

3. Proactively contacted players that we *hear* feel unwelcome, assuring them that they are welcome.

4. The floor remains open for discussion at all times. The two mods on reduced duties have posted again on Sages, announcing they are now on active duty again to help deal with the fallout of rumor mongering and dissatisfaction. We remain open to suggestions.

Regarding stardusted_lady, normally I wouldn't discuss specifics, but since she published e-mails on her journal, I'll discuss the situation with you, although it is clear, from what was shown to me by other players by copying and pasting excerpts of the e-mails from her LJ that she edited the e-mails and perhaps changed the wording.

SL drove three players from Sages due to both IC and OOC interactions. One of them has come back and now feels safe in the comm after she left. One player left in tears. She atatcked these players *on* Sages, in posts and comments that had to be quickly deleted, since they were explicitly OOC. Two of these players that were driven away had never spoken to me before OOC, and they are not personal friends. One I had RPed with, but did not know personally. All three were longtime members of Sages, with *never* any issues before, so I took them seriously when they began to complain. They showed me communications with her that they perceived as bullying, hostile, and downright bizarre at times. Before we spoke to her about Sages, we went back and spent hours reading threads that she was involved in, in order to evaluate if these player's concerns were valid or not. I observed on Sages interactions that I felt uncomfortable with. No matter how certain characters approached her character, they were met with hostility and accused of ganging up on her. After the other mods read these threads, and asking a few uninvolved to also read them, so that we could get a range of perspectives, we decided we overall disagreed with her accusation of being bullied IC. Athena's player withdrew for a time, not wanting to be bullied IC by Yvaine or her group. Again, a perceptual difference, and Yvaine accused players of intent to bully when *none was present.*

A particular thread that she refers to again and again as bullying we observed other players and characters trying to calm her down in character and soothe her. She interpreted this as bullying IC and OOC. She in fact went out of her way IC to attack Frank IC in the first comment she made to a post that he made one day; it was obviously a case of IC/OOC lack of boundary, which she later admitted to. When Yvaine was still fairly new at Sages, she attacked Vision's player OOC the second time that Vision's player ever interacted with her, getting very upset that *he didn't remember Yvaine's name,* stating "I am tired of no one talking to me in this community!" and then going on in that manner. The threads are all still there on Sages for all to see. What she failed to recognized, I guess, is that Vision *was* speaking to her, introducing himself to her, and he then went out of his way to reassure her OOC that she should keep trying to talk to people, etc., and that being a new member in a high volume community could be a bit overwhelming, etc.

She stated that she would deliberately go out of her way to be rude to Frank and/or his player at one point. That thread is still on Sages, too (as well as stating it on her LJ). So that is what happened wtih SL. There are always two sides to every story.

Anyway, in summation, overall: we are open to suggestions, and changes. Again, if players NEVER talk to us to get out perspective, or NEVER raise their concerns, we can't assist them. In light of recent rumors, we have taken the steps to contact people *in case* what we heard about them being upset was true.

If you tell me what it is you are asking for on Sages, then I can work with it, and we can get somewhere. Shall we try that?  :-)

Thanks,

Kali

Dear Kali,

Thank you for reading my letter carefully. Also, thank you for taking the time to compose your letter. Now that you point it out, rehashing events past might be a time-waster. I agree that time might be better served if I focus on proposing solutions. :) I'll be thinking over ideas that might be helpful. Please feel free to ping me on AIM if a follow-up letter to this takes too long.

Sincerely,

Jun-shaped

Hi,

No problem. A discussion on AIM might be better, actually. What's your AIM? I deleted you from my list after thinking that we probably wouldn't talk that way.

Life is too short to feud. It's time to let stuff go and get into talking about solutions, in my opinion. We're open to anything you have to say.

:-)

Kali