Modcharacter-player interaction (Kali)
From Badrp
| Session Start (IndigoCybernaut9:Chat 15181023971964688450): Wed Apr 13 00:44:23 2005 | |
| ------------- | Hi Indigo. |
|---|---|
| apheta6 | Hi indigo. |
| ------------- | Call me Kaz, please |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Good evening, Kaz. |
| ------------- | Good evening! |
| apheta6 | I'll preface this by saying that Kaz and I have known each other for a while. The mods know each other well, but we don't always agree on Sages issues. However, we always come to resolution with each other. |
| apheta6 | This is to let you know that Kaz is not the type of person to rubber stamp anything I say. Just the opposite. |
| Editor’s Note: Indigo had requested that someone be allowed to accompany her into this chat. This wasn’t allowed. Instead, Kali had her friend Kaz sit in on the session – Kaz is actually Tabby-mun (bloody_bottle), who has just returned from a vacation and has no idea what’s going on with this situation. Kali had also deliberately misinformed her of the circumstances, and only shown her two links. Tabby-mun was under the impression this chat would be telling Indigo that her comments had not been deleted: that day, LJ had been acting up and had eating many people’s comments. It soon becomes obvious that this is not about comments being deleted but about Kali’s problem with Indigo. | |
| ------------- | Yes, that's very true |
| apheta6 | As I said before, hi Indigo. :-) |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Good evening, Kali. |
| ------------- | I form my own opinions on these things, regardless of popular opinion |
| apheta6 | That you do. |
| apheta6 | Is there an issue about notice for this discussion? We thought we'd kind of play it by ear, so we're sorry if this caught you by surprise. You did indicate this morning that you'd be amenable to talking this week |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Yes, there was, but there's nothing to be done for it now, as we're here. |
| apheta6 | Well, I'd like to get something off of my chest so that we have a clean slate, because I don't want it to color this discussion., if that's ok. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Of course. |
| apheta6 | I know that you contacted Ollie regarding your complaints against me. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I did. And I told him I understood if it was a bad time, because I knew what he was going through. |
| apheta6 | You indicated that you knew of his personal situation when you did so. To be honest, Indigo, that upset some of the mods, because we're really protective of him right now, and want to take care of him. He's too nice to ever.... |
| apheta6 | ..let on how much that stressed him out. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I left him the choice to decline. I had no one else I felt I could turn to. Camwyn is also stressed out by this situation and I promised not to drag her back into it. I do not trust the other mods I know of. |
| apheta6 | The last thing we want to see is him hassling with Sages stuff when he had an impending death in the family. |
| apheta6 : you don't know the other mods, to be fair. So, this is now both a personal and official moderator request | his life is more important than Sages. Please do not contact him with any Sages related complaints for at least sixty days. |
| apheta6 | Can we agree on that? For his well being? |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I wasn't planning to. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I find the assumption that I would continue to a bit offensive. |
| apheta6 | Ok, thanks. Can you understand from our perspective how that might have seemed "ouch."? |
| apheta6 | I don't want this to linger, I just want it cleared up. We are human beings, we have feelings, we care for our friends, and he's a guy we want to take care of right now, that's all. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I care about him as well, and I would not have approached him about it if I thought I could approach any other mod about it. |
| ------------- | You can approach all the mods. |
| apheta6 | Definitely.We do not bite. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Kaz, with all due respect, that is not my impression. |
| ------------- | We're all close, but we're also close enough to tell each other what we think |
| apheta6 | I think that's the problem...oh, have you ever talked to Kaz before? |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Not that I am aware of. |
| apheta6 | Ok, so....Kaz is really approachable. To be honest, Indigo, I think the reason why this has festered is that you and I have never spoken directly. |
| ------------- | I think some of our chars might have interacted |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Yes, we have. It has not gone well in any of the instances. |
| apheta6 | We have never spoken via IM. |
| apheta6 | In real time, is what I meant. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Then, no, we have not. |
| apheta6 : Ok, I'm sensing literal here when I'm trying to sort of reach out. I'll try again | I am always open to communicating freely and respecftully with you via IM. Always. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | With all due respect, I do not think our communication styles work together well. That much is apparent to me from previous attempts to talk to you via LJ. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Wherein you told me what an immense problem I am, how many complaints you get about me, and how painful it is for you to deal with me. |
| apheta6 | Well, to resolve this, we sorta have to communicate, no? |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I am here, am I not? |
| apheta6 | Yes, I did. I understand that you have some complaints against me, so please lay them out, and let's see if we can work through them, and resolve them, and I'll tell you mine. |
| apheta6 | I'm sorry but you seem to be really defensive, and we're honestly being nice and trying to reach out here, Indigo. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I am defensive because I feel treated unfairly and bullied. |
| apheta6 | We are not going to ....we just started, and you already feel bullied? |
| apheta6 | Then let's resolve that unfair stuff and get us all back to feeling civil, if not good. It's not pleasant to feel that way. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I have felt bullied since I did the math and realized my Holospheres post disappearing plus my comment of 10 Things about batman disappearing plus my "torture does not equal empathy" post disappearing. |
| apheta6 | You lost me. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | And since your characters went from being either indifferent or nice to me to hostile. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | and since Epona told me you said I manipulate people OOC with my icons. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | And since Epona told me you said I play like I have a persecution complex. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | It's because I feel unfairly ganged up on by the mods. |
| apheta6 | Ok, you know that we have had problems with posts disappearing, right? |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | when I have not broken a single posted rule on the game. |
| apheta6 | tons of people have lost posts. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I don't entirely buy that anymore. |
| apheta6 | I lost the first three times I posted the last round on the Sages dating game. |
| apheta6 | Within ten minutes. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | not considering the posts that have vanished have had some stuff in common. |
| ------------- | Indigo, you aren't the only one who lost posts, there for a week or so, we lost about 40 |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Stuff you didn't approve of and said as much. |
| ------------- | You aren't the first to complain of that |
| apheta6 | ok, can we slow down and take this one by one? |
| apheta6 | We did, we lost about forty posts one week. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I'm not saying you didn't. |
| ------------- | I'm sorry, Indigo, are you accusing us of lying about why your posts disappeared? |
| ------------- | Because we've always been VERY honest when a post is deleted |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I'm saying both are possible. |
| ------------- | And the poster gets an email |
| ------------- | We don't sneak around and do it |
| apheta6 | ...hokay. Well, I lost a bunch. So I'm in the same boat. |
| apheta6 | There have been times that we've deleted posts for moderator reasons, but we always make the best effort to contact the player either before or simultaneously to let them know why, if they have e-mail |
| apheta6 | No one's had a lingering problem with it. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I wouldn't say no one. |
| ------------- | God, yes, we do. I've spent hours tracking down emails or IM names to let people know OOC their post is being deleted |
| apheta6 | So have I. |
| apheta6 | And the times we've done it, for a community of over 1200 people, is very, very small. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | ...yet I got no emails when my comments were deleted. |
| apheta6 | I will explain that. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I'm sorry, but I can't foresee the explanation being helpful, as I went and checked the rules. More than once. |
| apheta6 | ok, what was the next issue after post deletion? |
| apheta6 | the explanation about what? |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | And I was not in violation of any of the posted rules on the Userinfo page. |
| apheta6 | Ok, Indigo, slow down a sec. |
| apheta6 | The moderators will reserve teh right to delete a comment or thread if it is provoking OOC conflict, or deemed to be too inflammatory. We do our best to explain and let people know, but we reserve the right to do that in our best |
| apheta6 | ..judgement. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | You said no OOC flaming is allowed. That wasn't OOC. |
| apheta6 | What it comes down to is that sometimes in our community, and I mean that nicely, we will do things and the community simply has to live with them. We do take a lot of time to explain things to people. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | The Punisher was bragging about his empathy in the same breath as illustrating having tortured someone. An empath would have a problem with that. |
| apheta6 | Indigo, you know that things were bad between us OOC, in that you had complained about me to another mod, and complained about me to other people |
| apheta6 | I did not wish to engage with you IC in a hostile manner. That had already happened between us, and I wanted to stop that cycle immediately |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Things have been bad between us since you came in my own LJ and brought the conflict there. |
| apheta6 | Ah, ok. Now we get down to it. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | And when I tried to explain my POV, you got angry with me. |
| apheta6 | Ok I have the link here and the comments i made, in preparation for this, for Kaz to see |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | And then it happened again on Doomworld LJ, and your characters went from being indifferent to me to being actively hostile. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | And I know for a fact I'm not the only person who has seen the IC/OOC thing. Multiple people have said to you "Why does Frank or Kali seem to lean on Indigo so much?" |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I was willing to live with it until I started getting censored. And then when people who were standing up for me started getting censored. |
| apheta6 | No, Indigo, the first I heard of it was the one day you last posted, about announcing the Spira RPG |
| apheta6 | Ok, can I explain things from my perspective, because I'm getting accused of a LOT here. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Interesting. I suppose people have just been saying it to me to make me feel better. |
| ------------- | Ok, that's where I'm getting confused. I've read a lot of this, and I never thought censorship at all. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I nearly quit Sages over this. People convinced me not to. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I have been having anxiety attacks over this. |
| apheta6 | Ok, Indigo, the sarcasm isn't helping. We are really trying to work with you here. |
| ------------- | And for the record, Kali and I have no problem getting at each others throat about stuff like this |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I'm not being sarcastic. |
| apheta6 | HAHA! THat's so true, Kaz. |
| ------------- | We bump heads all the time |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | That was a serious comment. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | There are a group of us who feel picked on by Kali. |
| apheta6 | If they come to me directly, we can talk about it and resolve it. |
| Editor’s Note: if there is anyone who has ever resolved anything with Kali, please alert the Pope or something. | |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | and at least one of those people felt like they were alone until it was pointed out I seem to be a faovred target. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | You reduced the other person to tears, Kali. |
| apheta6 | Do you mean Kali, or some other sock puppet? |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | She has backed off Sages because of you. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I mean Kali. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | She does not think she will get treated fairly if she approaches you. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Same as I do. |
| ------------- | Kali is warlike. That's IC |
| apheta6 : Ok, as an aside | I outed myself to you by accidnet with one of my sock puppets, Frank. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Kali is gentle to the people she likes best. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | You outed yourself to me as Kali and as Frank. |
| ------------- | She's nasty to lots of people |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | She's nasty to a certain handful of us all the time, Kaz. |
| ------------- | not always, she's viscious to almost all my chars, and she KNOWS me |
| apheta6 : Just as a respectful aside | I consider who I write to be private. Because of this, Frank is being probably given to someone else that I write. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I'm not the only person who makes the observation. |
| apheta6 | ok, so I'm being accused here like i'm not even in the room. |
| apheta6 | Indigo, it's probably more helpful if you state things as perception, rather than accuse intent |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | This is my perception. |
| ------------- | Well, if you're looking hard enough, it's not hard to find people persecuting you. Especially when the IC/OOC line is so grey |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | That I, and people who are my friends are your favored targets to give a hard time. |
| apheta6 | Ok, back up. On the privacy thing - I ask that you respect my privacy as to who I write. I have a strong suspicion of who you write on Sages, but have never, ever disclosed that to anyone, and never will, unless you tell me it's ok |
| apheta6 | Or state it pbulicy |
| IndigoCybernaut9: Kaz | I wasn't looking. I was trying to just go about Sages and not deal with Kali unless I had to by IC circumstance. |
| apheta6 | Indigo, I don't even KNOW WHO YOUR FRIENDS ARE |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Yes, you do. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | You deleted them all off the Spira thread. |
| apheta6 | Excpet for Epona. |
| apheta6 | yes, because they started to attack me OOC and make some very heavy accusations |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Everybody who defended me on that thread -- comment deleted. |
| apheta6 | Indigo, Frank asking you to ask a question was the EXACT same thing that he'd said, almost the exact same wording, that he'd said in other posts in the last few days that lacked questions. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Except he has ignored several other posts with no questions. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | And there were three questions in that post. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | And he's ignored that several other posts had questions not directed at the entire community. |
| apheta6 | No, Indigo, everyone who jumped on me and started to jump on ME for doing something I've been consistently doing with other characters got told to take it off board if there were a concern |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Not consistently. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | No, not consistently. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | As Edana pointed out in the same thread. |
| apheta6 | Yes, I have backed off on the question thing. May I get a word in edgewise? |
| apheta6 | See, one of the problems is that you, along with most other players, don't see a lot of what happens in the background, behind the curtain, as it were. |
| apheta6 | this is normal and to be expected |
| apheta6 | We've had a trend over the past six weeks for a lot of posts to be just announcements of RPing elsewhere. |
| ------------- | I had noticed that too |
| apheta6 | Now, we like the RPing that Sages has spawned, don't get me wrong. However, the original intent on Sages was to keep most of the posts in a quesiton and answer thing |
| apheta6 | Some of our oldest community members started to write to me and to us, saying "we had more fun when the posts had questions in them" |
| ------------- | Well, it IS an advise column. |
| apheta6 | Hence, we talked about it, and I started interjecting that into posts, along with other moderator characters, btw |
| ------------- | When the RP's get too big, they normally split off naturally |
| apheta6 | Like I said, we like the RPing |
| apheta6 | I mean, Sages is partially a RPG |
| apheta6 | as far as duplicating the game concept, it's copyrighted now completely...we had a small group of four people leave the community and start a clone community, but it quickly died. So, we like the RPing. However, people had mentioned |
| apheta6 : to us | "can we get back to the question and answer thing?" |
| apheta6 : So, there was context to me interjecting that into posts. You will note that other characters have done this frequently. Professor X has commented to that effect quite a bit | "and the answer to the question you did not ask.." |
| apheta6 | So has Namor, so has Ollie, so has other characters that I have nothing to do with. |
| ------------- | I got several OOC comments in one of my char journals about that |
| apheta6 | So there's always a larger context. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Yes, and in those cases there was no question at all. In my post, as was repeatedly pointed out, there were three. |
| apheta6 | But it read to me more like just a game announcement thing. All I wanted was a question in there, even if it was "dont I look cute in my Spira gear?" or something |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I can't help how it read to you. You said ask a question. There were three questions in the post. |
| apheta6 | The Rping is welcome, believe me. But since we have at least a hundred noobs coming into the community every week, we like to have the posts often be about questions. |
| ------------- | Ok, we could argue semantics all night, and please, lets not. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | In which case, the userinfo page needs to be updated with all the new rules. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | That's my opinion. It's not fair to hold people to rules they can't see posted. |
| ------------- | Indigo, bottom line is they were deleted and it was NOT personal. |
| apheta6 | Ok Indigo, I don't want to argue semantics. Exactly. I 'm sorry it turned out the way it did. What I am trying to communicate here is that Frank had done the EXACT same thing earlier in the day and the day before to other posts |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | And Frank had done nothing earlier in the day and days before to posts that didn't have questions. And has not done anything since to posts without questions. |
| apheta6 | yes, Indigo, we intend to do that. We all have heavy stuff going on in our lives right now. We're doing our best. |
| apheta6 | I'm sorry Indigo, but that is not true. Frank had. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Edana pointed out to you in the thread on Spira. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | You deleted the comment. |
| apheta6 | I did. Because she was taking stuff OOC and it was getting nasty. |
| apheta6 | All I wanted was to take the dialogue off board. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Because people were responding to me feeling ganged up on unfailry. |
| apheta6 | Should it happen again, a moderator will probably act the same way. As long as people express it off board, it is fine. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | You were being curt and abrupt about it and in not really acknowledging what people were upset about in a constructive way. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | That's not moderate. That's heavy handed. |
| apheta6 | ok, well....can we go back a couple of months ...Indigo, Frank tends to be curt. |
| ------------- | It doesn't matter. OOC snark gets deleted. No matter whose side they're on. |
| apheta6 | Ok, so I am a lying bully heavy handed moderator. Gotcha. |
| apheta6 | Kaz is right. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I believe I'm detecting the sarcasm here now. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | And I do feel you are bullying and heavyhanded from my point of view, yes. |
| ------------- | ::headdesk:: |
| apheta6 | Believe me, Indigo, when the slashy crowd wrote me jumping ALL ove ryou, and posted comments about you on Sages that you probably never saw, that's due to the fact that I deleted them within ten seconds of them appearing. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I have had the moderators jump me for stuff other people do not get jumped for. I have seen the moderators jump certain people for one thing and let others slide with it. |
| apheta6 | And I spent *hours* defending you, btw. Hourse. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | The inconsistency is why there is an appearance of certain people being targets. |
| ------------- | We get thousands of comments a day, Indigo |
| apheta6 | I get over 200 e-mails a day. |
| apheta6 | We can't be in every thread. We try our best. We do. |
| ------------- | We try to catch all we can, but we don't spend out whole lives glued to the computer making sure that no one's feelings get hurt |
| apheta6 | Exaclty. We do our best. We're not perfect. |
| ------------- | People who tend to be more overt about certain things tend to get noticed. Sometimes the quieter people fall by the wayside |
| apheta6 | Exactly. What Kaz said. |
| ------------- | We try as hard as we can, but we aren't getting paid to do this |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Okay, I'm seeing where this is going. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | No matter how it looks, you don't mean to make me feel bullied. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | You don't mean to come across heavy handed. |
| ------------- | No, actually we don't. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | And Kali doesn't mean anything by it when she tells me what a problem I am and how many complaints pile up about me all the time. |
| ------------- | And if you feel that way, I'm sorry. |
| ------------- | But you're wrong |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | And how painful it is to deal with me. |
| apheta6 | Well, honestly, yes. I don't go through life wanting to have people complain about me, or feel bullied. That's true, Indigo. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I'm wrong. And everyone else who feels that way is wrong too. |
| apheta6 | Indigo, we never said that. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | That's exactly what you're telling me. I'm wrong. |
| apheta6 | Please allow me to acknowledge some stuff here. However, my perception of you thus far is that you are extremely sensitive... |
| ------------- | We're not bullying you. |
| apheta6 | ...and that sometimes when I do something to someone IC, they don't get offended, but you might. You see? People are unknown quantities sometimes |
| apheta6 | And I think it's the larger context of the festering problems between us that's informed any IC dynamic and made if potentially explosive at times. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | except like I keep saying, I'm not the only person who sees you as treating me the way I have described. |
| apheta6 | So, I want to go back a few months. I know when my issues with you began. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | ...when I waited until the second paragraph to say "typically" when describing my opinion -- I stress again, my opinion -- about Slash. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | or before that? |
| apheta6 | With the whole Slash war thing that threatened to develop on SAges. Can you understand how, running Sages, taht we might not want fandom wars there at all? I mean, does that make sense, no sarcasm at all here? |
| IndigoCybernaut9: I didn't know at the time there had been one. [01:36] apheta6 | Kaz, what she means is that Indigo got involved in a discussion on Sages back in...argh..January |
| ------------- | I remember. |
| ------------- | I was involved. |
| apheta6 | I posted a comment as Orogloss just asking that all potentially negative stuff on both sides be taken out of the community. |
| apheta6 | Indigo then posted in her LJ that she was upset. I went to her LJ, because I had no way of contacting her and didn't have her e-mail, and tried to make it right with her. |
| Editor’s Note: Later Kali mentions in conjunction with another incident that she knew Indigo had a paid LJ account and thus, like all paid account users, has an e-mail address at username@livejournal.com | |
| apheta6 | She perceives that as me chasing her onto her LJ and bringing a fandom war to her. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Actually, what you said was that you were concerned about how someone might take what I had said. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Something about which I had no control over. |
| apheta6 : Ok, same diffetrence. I cann't stress this enough | we don't want fandom wars at Sages. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | You said how articulate I am, like I intentionally chose my words trying to start something, as opposed to trying to briefly answer the question and state my opinion, which is what I was doing. |
| apheta6 | Because you have had negative run ins with intolerant slashers before, I guess I thought you'd understand that we just didn't want a discussion of it at ALL, precisely BECAUSE some slashers get hystericaly. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | and when I explained to you why I have a negative opinion of slashers, you said you didn't understand how that was germane to the conversation. |
| apheta6 | Indigo, if I say articulate, it was meant as a compliment. COMPLIMENT, woman. Compliment. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | You didn't phrase it like one. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | You phrased it like you were accusing me of using my words as a weapon. |
| apheta6 | Because when we talk about it, Indigo, I was trying to focus on you and I, and instead I got your entire history with the slash community. I'm not the slash community. |
| apheta6 | I only wanted to make things right between me and what I thought was my newish friend, Indigo. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | You wanted to know why I responded with strong opinion. that's why. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I was explaining and you didn't want an explanation. |
| apheta6 | God, I had the best intentions. I walked away in tears. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | So I dropped the conversation because I wasn't getting through to you, and only pissing you off. |
| apheta6 | OK, so all I hear is defensiveness, so why don't we drop it. |
| apheta6 | Here's how the convo ended, Kaz" |
| apheta6 | I already said I give up. You won't hear me bringing up the subject again. |
| apheta6 | YOU. WIN. |
| apheta6 | I just kind of quailed at that. |
| ------------- | Ok. *is getting a headache* |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | And someone observed in the doomworld thread that you say you mean well, and are trying to set things calmly, but you come across as harsh and threatening even when you preface with "I hold you in high regard." |
| apheta6 | Well, anyway, so then the next thing was Doom's LJ. Now, it's pretty clear that Doom, while on a leave of absence, is still a Sage. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I can react like I feel threatened, or I can stand up for myself. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Neither is acceptable to you. |
| apheta6 | (Link: |
| apheta6 | There, Kaz. although I know you've read it. |
| -------------: Kali: quiet for a sec. Indy | Tell me what it's going to take to make this stop. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I don't know. You're telling me everything I feel and perceive and see and can support with other people backing me up about how you treat me is wrong. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I can't react like I feel threatened by you when you make me feel threatened. |
| apheta6 | Am I doing that, Kaz?\\ |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I can't stand up for myself because you don't like me responding defensively. |
| apheta6 | YOu can certainly stand up for yourself, we would never take that away from you. Ever. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | You've done it tonight telling me how wrong I am. |
| ------------- | We want people to stand up for themselves |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | There's nothing for me to be defensive about because you're not really being heavy handed or bullying. |
| apheta6 | But Indigo, I have feelings too. To have someone coming into a chat and say you LIE, you bully, and not allow any real dialogue to be had about that, is hard. I have feelings. I am not saying you are wrong. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I didn't say you lie. |
| ------------- | *Sighs* Ok. Fine. If you want to believe we're heavy handed bullies, great. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I said it didn't look good. |
| ------------- | I'm sick of arguing about it. |
| apheta6 | I am trying to tell yout hat if I've seemed bullying, then let's clear stuff up, so we can change that. |
| ------------- | You weren't wrong. |
| ------------- | In my opinion, you've misperceived a lot, but that does not make you wrong. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | nobody ever wants to be the bad guy. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Therefore I have to have misperceived. |
| apheta6 | Well, then the Doom LJ thing. We all read Doom's LJ. Indigo, can you understand how your comments about being censored on Sages is going to upset the Sages mods that read that? |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Me and the others who feel the same way. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Or you're the bad guys. |
| ------------- | Ok, so I'm not allowed to have an opinion on this? |
| apheta6 : Indigo, please try to let go of something | neither of us has ever stated or implied that you are WRONG. Except when I said that Frank has made the same comments to you that he's made to other people. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I didn't say you weren't allowed to have an opinion. |
| ------------- | I'm here trying to help YOU Indy. I hate this shit. |
| IndigoCybernaut9: [01:32] ------------- | No, actually we don't. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | And Kali doesn't mean anything by it when she tells me what a problem I am and how many complaints pile up about me all the time. |
| ------------- | And if you feel that way, I'm sorry. |
| ------------- | But you're wrong |
| IndigoCybernaut9: [01:32] ------------- | No, actually we don't. |
| IndigoCybernaut9: [01:32] ------------- | And if you feel that way, I'm sorry. |
| ------------- | But you're wrong |
| apheta6 | I'm trying to explain that I got very wary of you after you said on Doom's LJ that we censored you, and that we chased you onto your LJ. |
| apheta6 | Ahhh...Kaz? |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | You did. |
| apheta6 | Indigo, can we get past this and move on? I will try to be very sensitive to not telling you that you are wrong. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | It would help if you would both be consistent. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Don't tell me I'm wrong and then twenty minutes later say you didn't say it. |
| ------------- | I did say that. |
| ------------- | I was wrong. |
| apheta6 | I think KAz meant broadly. |
| apheta6 | Kaz, you were wrong. |
| apheta6 | Wrong, I say! |
| apheta6 | :-D |
| ------------- | Whoopdedo! I'm a dumb ass! |
| ------------- | We're evil bullies who pick on everyone! Watch me throw flowers in joy! |
| apheta6 | I will now look up the patron saint of windburn and send him or her your way. |
| apheta6 | Ok, stop, seriously. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | No, not everyone. That's exactly the issue here. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Specific handful of people. |
| apheta6 | We are not here to pass judgement or say anyone is wrong. |
| apheta6 | Look, in a nutshell, this is how I've been feeling: |
| apheta6 | I have been hearing from...lessess...eleven people thus far that you complain about me. Loudly. |
| apheta6 | From people in the various chats, from other players. |
| apheta6 | We've never had a chance to talk via IM face to face. This has made things worse. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Don't feel safe speaking to you after previous attempts. |
| apheta6 : Now, I'm a human being. I have feelings. So, I've been feeling | wow, you sure play a lot in a community that *I* founded, conceptualized, and staked out the LJ real estate for, and yet you sure complain a lot about me. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I try to stay out of your way in Sages and you seem to go out of yours to come after me ICly. |
| apheta6 | I'm really sorry that it's gotten to this point between us. And I'm sorry if I've come across as someone not safe to talk to you, I know that's hard. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | And I did go into the chat once because I was in tears one night and because of our previous conversations was pretty much well convinced I was an objectionable person who causes problems. |
| apheta6 | One of the other moderators is someone that I RPed with, and we met because they had a HUGE issue with me, we got off on the wrong foot, they came to me, we talked, and we've been on excellent terms since then. |
| Editor’s Note: This is the example Kali constantly uses. It appears to correspond with an example painkiller_jane has given on such posts as Edana’s BRPS post. Shortly following the inadvertent posting of a log which included OOC comments about how Kali played many characters who interact with each other, Jane posted an OOC notice that she would be gone to another country for an indefinite period of time. Both Kali and Jane have mentioned on several occasions the fact that they are involved/have been involved in a job that exposes them to various hardships of life. ... Look, they’re the same person. That’s what I’m saying. I try to keep cattiness out of these notes but for crap’s sake, if you’re at the site and reading this you know what I mean. | |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | The group in the chat replied "what the hell are you talking about?" |
| apheta6 | Ok, well, how do you expect that to foster goodwill? See, I really don't want drama in our community, at all. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | So I wasn't supposed to talk to anybody about how bad I felt from how you treated me just to keep drama down. |
| apheta6 | No, I didn't say that. |
| apheta6 : But ultimately, it comes down to this | if someone in the community causes one or more of the mods too much emotional stress, and if
after repeated attempts to reconcile civility cannot be reached, we may ultimately.... |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I'm not the only person who's ended up in tears from you. Nor the only person who thinks you carry OOC issues IC. I know
this for a fact because people have shared logs or snips of conversation with me. |
| apheta6 | ...make the decision to remove that person from the community. We're a long way off from there, but that's where we're heading
if we can't make some headway here. |
| apheta6 | Logs of my conversations with who? |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Not at liberty to say without permission. |
| apheta6 | I don't believe I speak to anyone you know, outside of Cam and Ollie. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | And Epona. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | And I know Shay has emailed the mods. |
| apheta6 | Yes, he did. |
| apheta6 | I have spoken to Epona once. |
| ------------- | I read that one, I believe. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Yes, and you told her I play like I have a persecution complex. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Because I feel persecuted. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | You told Camwyn I use my LJ icons to manipulate people OOCly into being nice to me ICly. |
| apheta6 : I did say to her that I saw a pattern with you | that if I or another mod said something to you OOC, you brought out the teary eyed
icon with the message "I'm not a bad person." No one thinks you are. |
| ------------- | You play your char like she has a persecution complex? |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | No. I don't. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I don't recall ever saying "I'm not a bad person." |
| ------------- | Okay, and please note the question mark, I was asking |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | and when the icon is appropriate for how I feel, I use it. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Just like every other icon I have. |
| apheta6 | (Link:
http://www.livejournal.com/community/sages_of_chaos/327788.html?thread=23937 388#t23937388) |
| apheta6 | There, Kaz. Take a look |
| apheta6 | Ok, but Indigo? That sends a strong message to a moderator. |
| apheta6 | I would have had Vision come in to talk to you about that, but he's working. |
| apheta6 | No one ever stated or implied that you were a bad person |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Vision is another mod who has come down on me hard where others get let slide. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | The whole Beetlejuice thing. |
| apheta6 | OK, I knew that would come up. |
| apheta6 | Four mods have read that thread and disagree. |
| apheta6 | We looked at it carefully. |
| apheta6 | over the past week. |
| apheta6 | See, here's another behind the curtain thing. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | So you all saw me say "It was IC. The beetlejuice player knew it was IC. The beetlejuice player was okay with it." and
thought I was lying? |
| apheta6 : His only objective was this | can I explain, please? |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | And the Beetlejuice player said "It was IC. I knew it was IC. And I was okay with it." |
| ------------- | I agree, I didn't see that as "coming down hard". Not saying you're wrong, Indy, just stating my opinion |
| apheta6 | When someone posts IC that they have banned someone...we get n00bs in the community e-mailing me saying "omg I don't understand, can
people ban characters here OMG WTF?" |
| ------------- | Hell yes we do. |
| apheta6 | We take action to preempt that. |
| ------------- | Tons of emails. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I didn't say banned, I said banished. And I even explained it in detail. |
| apheta6 | No, I meant that someone e-mailed Vizh saying "wait, this woman banned someone?" |
| apheta6 | Yes, you did, but Indigo..not everyone reads. Seriously. |
| ------------- | Angry ones. It's a huge nightmare |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | While I appreciate your position as mods, the Beetlejuice^3 thing is canon. |
| apheta6 | We have to idiot proof the place practically |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | and I'm not a mod. |
| ------------- | And not everyone is familiar with the canon. |
| apheta6 | Sigh. What I'm saying is that Vizh did what he did to clarify that it was all OOC okay. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | so people saying "she banned someone" when I'm not a mod is...? |
| apheta6 | newbies don't know you're not a mod, hon. They don't know. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | *facepalm* The mods are on the userinfo page. |
| apheta6 | The only point was to make sure that some other player wasn't fuming in a corner saying "SHE BANNED ME!" That was his only intent.
Once you stated that you two knew each other, then it was cool, we all understood. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | This is holding me responsible for stuff that is neither my fault nor in my control. |
| ------------- | I got comments from people who thought we banned him for you |
| apheta6 | Yeah, see? |
| apheta6 | Indigo...not everyone reads the user info page before jumping into the community. As has been proven time and time again, and I
am laughing as I type this. |
| apheta6 | I only wish! If you can find a way to make them, I will give you $10K cold hard cash right now, Indigo, I swear. |
| ------------- | I'll match that amount. |
| ------------- | God save the noobs, bless them. |
| apheta6 | $20K, up for grabs! *waves fistful of Monopoloy dollars* |
| apheta6 | I can't spell, sorry. My arm is sore. I almost got hit by a car last night, Kaz, I forgot to tell you. |
| apheta6 | ok, Indigo, I don't know what to do. A mod asking for clarification is, IMHO, not holding you responsbiel, except for what you
post. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I clarified and it was not dropped. |
| ------------- | Jesus, kali! |
| apheta6 | Mods will probably continue to occasionally request clarification from players. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | It was not dropped until Beetlejuice player said something. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | and he wouldn't have said anything if I hadn't asked him to. |
| apheta6 | That's right, then it became clear that there was mutual goodwill. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | So it came across that my word was not good enough for you. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I must've been lying. |
| apheta6 | See, we've had this kind of situation happen before: |
| apheta6 | Where one player says something is cool, and honestly believes that it is. |
| apheta6 | The other player then may come to a mod and say "um, I'm still not feeling comfortable with this." |
| apheta6 | We try to preempt that. I did not think that Visions' two comments to you implied that he didn't take your word. If he asked for
clarification, that was him asking for clarification. He's very methodical. |
| apheta6 | This wasn't "beat up on Indigo." This was "hmm...could there have been a misunderstaing? Are there hard feelings anywhere?" |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | The Juice player was playing Juice at my urging |
| apheta6 | WE did not know that until he said so! How were we to know that? Once the player said "it's cool," so were we. |
| apheta6 | It wasn't even that big a deal, I mean it wasn't even on the radar at all until Epona told me that you were claiming harassment. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | You overlook so much about so much other stuff and nail me for something trivial. Can you see how it looks from the point
of view of the person being nailed? |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Something that was not only trivial, but canonical. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | And not in violation of the rules. That has happened multiple times now. |
| apheta6 | Indigo, I can't remember Beetlejuice stuff. That was Vision, not me. We all have requrested clarification from players numerous
times, not involving you. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | However, adding to that with already feeling censored and threatened by dealing with you, it gave me the impression of
the mods having something against me, save two. |
| apheta6 | Look, where are we going with this? I'm really not happy with the negative dynamic. *I'd* like to make it better. I'm really sorry
that OOC hostility has seeped over into IC stuff, I've felt it on both sides, and i'm sorry. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I haven't been hostile to you unless directly addressed in such a fashion as to make it hostile. |
| apheta6 | Ok, so how am I supposed to work with that? |
| apheta6 | I started all the hostility? |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I'm not allowed to react threatened IC to Frank saying he considers me "part of the problem" when canonically if he says
that he considers someone on his list. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I'm not allowed to act angry when someone posts about torture but says they're talking about empathy. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | ICly. |
| apheta6 | I'm pretty sure I meant that as a joke. Frank has joked with virtually everyone in the community by playing the heavy over
ridiculous things. |
| Editor’s Note: I personally am having trouble recalling any example of this, although I can recall a few instances where a ridiculous response was possibly meant as parody but caused confusion and general miscommunication among players. | |
| apheta6 | ...torture? |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Ultrasonics. Daredevil. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Torture. |
| apheta6 | Indigo, if you're an empath, I'm having trouble seeing how you can't really understand how I might feel at all. |
| apheta6 | Indigo, your comment came at a time when there was hostility between us OOC. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I'm not the level of empath RL that I am ICly. |
| apheta6 | I didn't want to play IC in that way. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | ((I have to give 30 minute warning. I have work tomorrow.)) |
| apheta6 | I have to give 15 minute warning. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | So I'm not allowed to have an IC reaction because you didn't want anyone to react that way ICly? |
| apheta6 | No, Indigo. |
| apheta6 | You had just complained about me to Ollie. |
| apheta6 | I didn't want that kind of negative IC interaction with you. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I didn't complain about you to Ollie until after that post was deleted. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | That's what caused me to complain to Ollie. |
| apheta6 | No, he had sent me an e-mail earlier that day telling me of your complaints. |
| apheta6 | He'd heard about others. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | You're confused about the time here. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I emailed him after the Spira thing, even. |
| apheta6 | Taht and the "Sages censors me about slash!" "Kali chased me to my own LJ!" "Vision harassed me over Beetljuice!" and that was kinda
the final straw. |
| apheta6 | I just didn't want to engage that way. It's my right, as a Moderator. I may exercise it again. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I rarely see it happening to other people. And neither do the people who agree with me. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Then the Moderators' Bill of Rights needs to be posted on the userinfopage so you can point to it anytime you exercise one. |
| apheta6 | Ok, I can't help "people" until they come directly to us with issues. |
| apheta6 | Indigo, please do not presume to tell us how to run our community, please. That's not productive. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Right. And some people have, I'm told, gone to mods with issues of late. |
| apheta6 | Ultimately, people need to either respect the fact that the moderators run things, and if it really rankles, talk to us, we'll do
our best to explain and work it out, but we do run things. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | It's not productive to delete without so much as a polite comment as to why either. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | That's what escalated this. |
| ------------- | We don't have time to coddle everyone. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Courtesy is not coddling. |
| ------------- | We try to keep the comm as positive as possible. |
| ------------- | But there's only so much we can do. |
| apheta6 | I usually endeavor to do that, actually, but with you, I hesitated, to be honest. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | So anything, IC or OOC, some mod doesn't like is up for deletion without talking to them. |
| apheta6 | That depends. If it is judged to foster an OOC conflict, it may be. |
| ------------- | You have no idea the shit I've eaten from people trying to be nice on that comm |
| apheta6 | If it fosters OOC conflict, meaning that it all happens OOC, then it may be. |
| ------------- | Don't even think to presume that you do. |
| apheta6 | We really try not to do that, but it does happen. |
| apheta6 | We've deleted threads of people flaming |
| ------------- | We word incredibly hard to be unbiased |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | There was nothing OOC about that. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | nor about the Batman post. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Which means the worst was assumed about me when it wasn't the case. |
| apheta6 | Although people don't do that much anymore, they seem to have gotten the message that OOC flaming is not allowed or tolerated. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I have a major problem with that. |
| apheta6 | The Batman post? OK, I'm lost. |
| ------------- | We're constantly in contact with each other, keeping fandoms straight and trying to keep the balance between everything |
| ------------- | It's exhausting |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I made an obviously playful post in response to Batman posting "I don't like people knowing about me" ten times. |
| ------------- | I haven't had fun with that fucking comm in months. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Only post that disappeared from that thread was mine. only one. |
| apheta6 | Indigo, to be honest, you seem to tonight have a major problem with *everything.* Nothing I say, no matter how much I reach out,
can get you off this negative track. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Kali, unfortunately, you gave me the impression and I am not feeling anything to change it. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I'm completely off base, not understanding, misperceiving no matter what I think about the situation or how I feel
about it. |
| apheta6 | Ok, so how do we solve this? I'm out of time for tonight. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Even when I haven't broken a posted rule. |
| apheta6 | You are right that things have been bad. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | And suggestions for solving the "rules not posted" or "Moderators rights" are considered presuming telling you how to
run Sages. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I can't say or do anything right here. |
| apheta6 | Again, if someone is judged to be really causing one or more mods too much stress, and if we cant work it out soon, then we may
eventually have to part ways. |
| apheta6 | No, actually, sharing your perspective has been helpful |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I have been staying out of your way unless/until directly addressed except for the Frank post. |
| apheta6 | Because I'm not always aware of how I'm perceived, as likely you are not alway aware how you are perceived. It's good to know. I
want to change it. |
| apheta6 | No, I mean from the community, Indigo. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I'm aware that I'm perceived as a non-problematic person a great deal more than I'm given credit for by the mods to my
perception. |
| apheta6 | I concede that after the Doom thing, I felt really resentful of you, accusing us of censorship, etc. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I wouldn't have the RP I do if that many people considered me a problem. You held that over my head. |
| apheta6 | and taht it trickled over into character, as I perceive it did with you at times. Since I HATE that, I felt really bad about it.
Things seem to get better, than they got worse. |
| apheta6 | I held what over your head? I'm sorry, I'm lost...? |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I didn't trickle it over into character. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I just avoided you. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | You announced publicly that you would henceforth be forwarding all the many, many complaints you get about me directly to
me. |
| apheta6 | That's right. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | That was hostile. Mean. Harsh. And unnecessary. If you wanted to take a shot at me, you could've done it in an email. The
ways to contact me are right on my LJ page and you've said repeatedly you didn't have my email. |
| apheta6 | Because I have gotten complaints, to be honest .Some from the people in the chat, but we have nothing to do with that, so I tell
people that we can't help them, wish them well, and sort of take the info in. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | From that point on, you were a threat. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Because a friend doesn't publicly slam you. |
| apheta6 | Your e-mail is not listed on your LJ user info as of this morning. |
| apheta6 | I guessed that you had #livejournal e-mail |
| apheta6 | Whoops, I meant @livejournal |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | any paid user does. |
| apheta6 | Well, Indigo, is stating publicly on Doom's LJ that we censor you nice? |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | That wasn't a personal attack. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Interesting. Evenlogged out i see my email. |
| apheta6 | I mean, put yourself in my shoes. You own a huge, thriving LJ community. Someone is there that complains a lot about you, and
you hear about it constantly. You IM them, they don't respond (granted, AIM is fucked sometimes), and... |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I have, as I said, never got an IM from you until tonight. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Not once. |
| apheta6 | Indigo, I checked it this morning, and did not see it. But my e-mail got through, that's what's important, ok? |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | And the first time I was asked to email the mods to explain myself, I never got a response back. |
| apheta6 | ..what? Lost again |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | it was before the beetlejuice thing. I don't remember for what. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I just remember being asked to mail the moderators. I did, and never heard another word. |
| apheta6 | I saw no e-mail from you. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Ok. |
| apheta6 | However, I use Yahoo. Stuff does get chucked into the spam folder sometimes through some divine act that is incomprehensiable to
me. I try to remember to check it, but four or five people have told me in the last six months |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Ok. |
| apheta6 | That e-mails have not gotten through. Five people. So, Yahoo sucks. |
| apheta6 | Maybe we can agree on that? Yahoo sucks. |
| ------------- | Hotmail's just as bad for that |
| ------------- | Yahoo blows, I'll second that. |
| apheta6 | Your hotmail blows goats. |
| ------------- | hell yes. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | No disrespect intended, but I do not use Yahoo mail. |
| apheta6 | As I said, Yahoo sucks. |
| apheta6 | gmail is worse. I'm STUCK. Sue me. |
| apheta6 | Well, my time is up, in the literal, not metaphorical sense. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Good night. Thank you for taking th etime totalk. |
| ------------- | I'm going to need to go soon as well |
| apheta6 | A copy of this will...well I wasn't chasing you out, Indigo. |
| apheta6 | we'll send this to all of the other mods, except for Ollie who is on break. |
| ------------- | Thank you for taking the time to talk too, Indy |
| apheta6 | I ask that you respect my privacy regarding who I write. Yoiu might be surprised at who writes who on Sages.
[02:35] * IndigoCybernaut9 shrugs. I only said who you admitted publicly. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I don't know who else you play besides the two you admitted. |
| ------------- | What do you guys say we let this lay for a week, and try again? |
| apheta6 | Ok, I did that on LJ to you, then deleted the comments. I ask that of *everyone* Indigo, not you. Everyone. |
| apheta6 | *not just you |
| ------------- | I don't feel like much got solved yet, but at least we know where everyone stands, so we can try to think about it now |
| apheta6 | If we can't agree on that, then there's no basis for dialogue whatsoever. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | If you deleted the ones on doomworld and my LJ, I haven't gone back. |
| apheta6 | I did indeed. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Well, henceforth, then. As far as I knew, the comments were still there for anyone to see. |
| apheta6 | I mean no one can say for certain that my brother and boyfriend have not possessed Frank at certain moments....... |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | And people have their own suppositions based on how Frank says they will call Kali or Kali will call Frank. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | which is nothing I have anything to do with. People draw those conclusions on their own. |
| apheta6 | Other characters invoke each other all of the time. Fine, Indigo, fine. I understand. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | You're being defensive here, and I was just offering an explanation. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I don't control what other people think, is all I'm saying. |
| apheta6 | Actually, I wasn't. That was said with a mild tone...or meant to be. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | Difficult to tell. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | You ascribe hostility to me when I'm not being hostile, so I can't but stay on guard around you. |
| apheta6 | ...and here we go again. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | *sighs and throws her hands up* Yes, back to I can't say anything right even when I'm trying as hard as I can to be
delicate and not poke. |
| apheta6 | We have no basis for trust, so I think caution is in order, I understand. |
| apheta6 | It's all this "it's your fault" stuff that I'm having an emotionally hard time dealing with, Indigo. |
| apheta6 | I'm pouring my heart out here, ok? |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | That puts us on the same footing because I'm getting "it's all your fault" from you and I've been having anxiety attacks
about it for a week. |
| apheta6 | I took TWO hours out of my night here to try to rebuild goodwill with you, ok? Not once in this conversation have I heard you once
say "wow, I can ..ok, i can see how you might feel that way." And yet I've said it to you. |
| apheta6 | That's why I'm frustrated. |
| apheta6 | what I've heard is that I'm a liar, a bully, and that "people" think we are "heavy handed." And not one inch from you, not one
acknowledgement of "ok, I can see how you might feel that." |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | ... there is no right response unless you want me to say what you want to hear. . |
| apheta6 | Or "ok, now I see why you did that." |
| apheta6 | that is simply untrue. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | No, it's not. |
| IndigoCybernaut9 | I don't see how you might do what you did. Or why you do what you have. |
| apheta6 | I may not agree with you on some things, but I've said tonight "ok, I can see how you might feel that way. Ok, now I understand." |
| apheta6 | Ok, then Indigo good night. We'll contact you in a week or so. Goodnight. |
