Rules : Wards must penetrate

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Current revision as of 20:37, 4 May 2006

Did we ever resolve this? I would much prefere that wards do not need to penetrate, or at least that if they need to penetrate (like any other spell) wards have a fixed level (like any other spell).

My reasoning is mainly based on the fact that wards are the only spell I know of that needs to be more powerful (magnitude vise) to affect a more powerful creature, and the fact that stopping someones movement is (with several examples on p84-ish) not blocked by parma. An other aspect of penetrating wards would be that Phaedrus would become close to imune to any Aegis in a few years, I do not think that is reasonable. --Samuel ^<Talk> 04:34, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

I've had no time for reading the Berk. List. I'm afraid I must leave that up to the players. I keep a copy of all the Berk. List mails, in case the players bring up something they've read though. Until I hear otherwise, I shall presume that they continue to work in the simple manner that they used to. Ignorance is bliss. :P --James\\^Talk 05:44, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

My take on this whole debate is that... it is a crock of shit. Wards should work in exactly the same way they always did. They should work as they worked under 4th edition, and under 3rd edition and presumably even further back. A ward must be GREATER than the MM of whatever is trying to get in and is warded against. Hence, if it's a demon with MM of 10, trying to get into a ward of 15, then it can't. It bounces. In the past, there used to be some kind of roll (I think) which added to the demon's attempt to push its way in - so repeated attempts might succeed. However, say we had a demon of MM 9. Then it would overcome the spell and leave only a single point of warding. However, this is STILL enough to keep the demon out. The spell doesn;t have to penetrate the demons MM, the demon must penetrate the spell. While any levels of spell are still in effect, it should keep the demon out. Simple. The way it used to work. The way it was designed to work. The way it should work.--Perikles 00:27, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Right, so you read the debate, and it didn't amount to anything? I'm happy with that. ReVi demon ward blocks creatures of the same level or below without a roll, according to the spell text. I don't think that is contradicted elsewhere, but it has happened before, eh? :D --James\\^Talk 08:43, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

No, the debate amounted to an official ruling that wards *do* need to penetrate. Thing is, it never worked like that before, but as argued by many on the list, requiring penetration of a ward *is* more consistent with the way other spells work. I'm happy to go along with having them work same as ever, no rolls required, just a straight up level-over-might. Because let's face it: Ars is, and always has been, filled with spells and effects that don't quite work consistently with magic theory. Hundreds of years after the founders have passed and we still don't really understand the theory of a lot of Vim effects (Parma and Aegis come to mind, or even the stink of the Gift itself). --Eirlys 13:37, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Ah... it was a bit premature to start posting this up, giving that the debate is still alive on the Berk. List. I shall wait for it to abate before I continue with this page. --James\\^Talk 01:31, 23 March 2006 (PST)

Well, the debate is still alive, and Ben's post below is the most cogent I've yet seen, but for rules lawyers the hard official ruling is out. I'm all in favour of HRing it after the dust settles. ;-) --202.156.6.69 03:03, 23 March 2006 (PST)

Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 09:27:36 +0900
From: David Chart <arsmagica@davidchart.com>
Subject: Re: [ARS] Magic Resistance & Wards

On Fri, 2006-03-17 at 15:08 +0100, Kenton wrote:
> Indeed, but isn't that because most of read the rules and *KNEW* that
> wards must have to penetrate, or *KNEW* that pen didn't figure in
> wards at all. Until this thread I certainly never considered that that
> might be the case and would have answered one of my players with
> "Of course not". 

Yes, I'm sure that's why. Both sides thought that their interpretation
was obvious, so neither side saw the need to raise it in their comments.
Thus the ambiguity passed unnoticed.

For people who want a binding, official statement of the official
interpretation of the rules as they stand:

Wards must penetrate.

I'm not sure what good that does anyone, though, because since it wasn't
discussed during the development phase, that may not be the best way to
handle them.

There *are* good arguments for creatures having to penetrate Wards, not
vice-versa. Thus, you would have wards against the supernatural, which
supernatural powers have to penetrate. For a creature with Might,
crossing the Ward physically is a 0-point power, so Might must exceed
the level of the Ward. Supernatural powers have normal penetration.
Mundane things cross without difficulty. Then there would be Wards
against the Mundane, which would have an effect on the target, and thus
the *Ward* would need to penetrate.

This, however, is definitely not the way the rules stand at present.
It's far too complicated to be implicit in a one line mention that a
particular Ward is resisted. Penetrating Wards also, apparently, work
quite well in practice, so maybe no change is needed.

As I say, I am now aware that there is a problem here, but I'm still not
sure how best to solve it, or indeed whether it can be solved before
ArM6, at least officially. House Rules can be applied, of course.
-- 
David Chart
Ars Magica Line Editor

Another side quirk: Aegis is a lot worse protecting
against creatures of Magical Realm, because the Magical
Aura modifier does not apply to the effective Penetration.
[The magical creatures gets the same Aura bonuses to their
MR as caster gets to his Casting Total and thus base Penetration.
Thus the aura is ignored by them.]

Yours
Antti Kautiainen

Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 03:17:15 -0500
From: "Ben Mcfarland" 
Subject: [ARS] Aegis, Wards, and Penetration. (Long)

I have to admit, I've been following the discussion over the last week on
Aegis and its (newfound?) requisite to Penetrate...

And I'm confused. I can't see how Penetration Totals of Wards or Aegis apply
to these spells.

The first line of the spell, Page 161 ArM 5E, says, "This ritual protects a
covenant in the way a Parma Magica protects a magus."

It's a Parma Sponsum... So why does the Penetration Total of the spell
matter? Is it really being said that if the Penetration Total for a
Covenant's Aegis is insufficient to pierce a magus' Parma Magica, then that
magus is unaffected by the Aegis? That seems to not only completely
trivialize the spell, but be counter to its purpose. Aegis creates an area
of effect that is just a flat, universal magic resistance equal to the
level-- it's not an effect to be resisted, but one that limits the flow
control of magic within its boundary. How could the Penetration Total of its
casting affect someone or something else outside the boundary? It doesn't
target anyone except those involved in the ritual and the tokens
specifically designated. Unless the magi involved want to resist it, (which
would beg the question 'why are you participating?') they would lower their
Parma for the casting. The rules on Ritual Spells are unclear as to whether
or not the magi need to lower their Parma for the whole casting or simply
it's completion.

I think the first line of the spell description summarizes the effect and
eliminates the need for debate. This seems cemented by the last paragraph,
indicating that the spell is more potent than it should be-- and this is
even supported by the Experimental Results Chart on pg 109-- you can get
random beneficial effects that are far beyond what they should be; it
happens. It's a quirk of The Magic (TM). Share and Enjoy.

Aegis of the Hearth == Parma Magica (for area defined by boundary, without a
penalty for sharing and without a form bonus but with a vis requisite and
longer casting time.) [to be read in a low voice at high velocity.]

I still don't see where Penetration Total of the Aegis comes into play.
Reading over the section on Parma and Penetration doesn't clarify the
matter. If anything, it would lead me to believe it doesn't.

As far as Ancestor Last had mentioned regarding Wards on Tue, 14 Mar 2006
13:25:45 -0800 (PST):
"To allow a ward to work without requiring to penetrate
MR would lead to a race toward high level wards. This
will quickly render wards much more powerfull than
other spells since you could actually affect creatures
with a level 50 ward that you could never with any
other spells."

So one either keeps the Bad Things (TM) in, or one keeps them out. Since a
magus has to draw a circle and touch it to complete the spell, I'd
anticipate that one is likely keeping the terrible, terrible Bad Thing out.
The Bad Thing that, in all probablilty, doesn't really need to sleep or eat.
I'm reminded of an old sword and sorcery comic where the main character
finds a skeleton inside a warded circle. Chances are that if you're drawing
this ward, you already have some serious issues. Is this really all that
unbalancing? The ward becomes a limited form of Parma Inimicus, keeping one
specific Bad Thing (and Its associated attempts to molest people or things
on the other side of said ward) in or out, up to a Might equal to the level
of the spell. It only works against what it's designed to Ward, and so has
limited utility.

Again, what's the big deal? These are a very limited subset of spells,
requiring some time and preparation to cast, and in most cases, being of an
impermanent nature. ArM5E made the possibility of a spontaneous, permanent
spell impossible, if I recall correctly-- it now always requires a Ritual
and vis. Certainly, if one had the proper arts, you could whip up a MuTe or
CrTe to create stone circle on of a dirt floor, or any floor for that
matter-- though I think I'd require a simple Finesse roll to ensure a proper
circle-- and then next round try either a spontaneous Ward or known
Formulaic Ward, but the chances of just throwing an effective Ward off the
cuff seem slim.

Reading the text of the Ward Against Faeries of the Waters implies that the
ward targets those within the ward-- not those outside the ward, giving the
occupants a MR of the Ward's level against Water Fae....where is Penetration
involved? Reading the Ward guidelines on ArM5E pg 114, last third of the
first column, say specifically that the target of a ward "is the thing
protected, rather than the things warded against." Why would a creature's
Might have anything to do with this? It shouldn't. A magus isn't affecting
the creature, he's affecting the protected target, giving them a resistance
against the thing warded.

Saxum Caribetum states on Thu, 16 Mar 2006 08:52:25, Message :1 of Ars
Magica Digest, Vol 10 Issue 42 that such an interpretation is "wrong."
However, I cannot see any supporting text for this statement. I don't
understand how the text from page 114 can be so easily dismissed.

It's not clear, but one could assume that the 'physical' Penetration of a
creature was its Might. We know that its powers are much weaker when it
comes to Penetrating Wards. Indeed, ArM5E pg 191 shows that a creature's
powers always have a Penetration Total less than its Might unless it has the
Penetration Ability:

Might Score - (5 x Might Point cost of Power) + Penetration Bonus.

So that Might 20 Wolf, Tarlan, on ArM5E pg 195, decides that he wants to try
make a grog flee with his *Marked Quarry* ability. The SG rolls a 2 for
initiative, plus 3 for quickness, and +5 for the ability, giving him a total
of 10.

Our Magus, Leonis, decides that now is the time to activate his WAFotW
(ArM5E pg 138), ReHe20 which he has handily drawn around the camp ahead of
time with a stick in the soft earth and knows Formulaicly. [We will assume
for the purposes of this exercise that Leonis knows that Tarlan is a Faerie
of the Woods.] He rolls a 7 for his initiative die, plus his quickness of 1,
plus his Finesse ability of 3. This gives him an initiative of 11, and thus
he acts before Tarlan. [If you do not use Finesse to modify spellcasting
initiative, then assume that Leonis' initiative die exploded with a 1
followed by a 6.] With a loud voice and expansive gestures, He rolls an 8
plus 2, and adds this to his Re 12 and his He 7. His stamina is +0 and there
is no Aura. He has successfully cast WAFotW. His ward is active before
Tarlan's power, providing it's protection to Leonis' grog.

Tarlan's attempt to affect Grog Bjorn now resolves. Its Penetration Total
is:

19 - (5 x 1) + 0 = 14.

14 is less than the level of the WAFotW ReHe20, so it does not Penetrate.

Bjarn is unaffected by the ability, and will remain so, as long as he's
within the WAFotW.

Where's the errata-spanning-concept-breaking here?

Nowhere in that example did I need to worry about Penetrating the Might of
Tarlan, because Leonis' WAFotW affects Bjorn, Leonis, and all others inside
the circle. Certainly, the example becomes more complex if Tarlan wins
initiative over Leonis, but Leonis wins over Bjorn-- I would consider that a
matter of SG's discretion. For my saga, I would have Bjorn safe until he
left the circle, when he would start running unless Tarlan was slain and
then he would do nothing caused by the ability.

Tarlan couldn't try kicking up dirt to break the Ward. He couldn't try
knocking an old log down the hill to break the Ward. I'm not even certain he
could ask another Fae, his friend the Nort, the Water Nixie, to wash away
the Ward. However, if it starts raining hard and that washes away the
circle, well, then Leonis had better be ready. Also, nothing prevent's Nort
from washing away the Ward of his own volition.

The only time I can see a Ward needing to Penetrate a creature's Might is
when that Ward is being used to trap the creature within the circle-- then
we are affecting the creature and the normal resolution would apply since
you're targeting the creature. Again, if you've somehow managed to get said
creature inside the circle without it noticing then you've still got half
the battle to win, and the difficult portion in my mind. It's easier to keep
the creature away than it is to pin the creature to a circle of ground,
powerless to leave or affect those outside. Makes sense to me.

Wards and Aegis create (Realm Aligned or Universal) Magic Resistance. Magic
Resistance doesn't Penetrate. It just is. It is what gets Penetrated.

If anything, the matter regarding what Spell Mastery: Magic Resistance for
Aegis does seems open to some debate. One might say that knowing how magic
is so limited within an Aegis would permit the magus more freedom to act
within a hostile Aegis, but given the magnitude of the spell and its
Breakthrough status I think such a Mastery benefit is probably unfitting. In
reality, I think the only benefit of Mastery with Aegis is probably the
reduction in botch dice during casting. Nothing else seems to fit.

To summarize, I believe the Penetration Total for Wards and Aegis don't
matter when used defensively and that the current ruleset supports this
conclusion. If used to trap a creature within a ward, or [for whatever
strange reason] if magi attempted to erect another Aegis around an existing
Aegis, then the Penetration Totals of the spells become important for
overcoming either the entrapped creature's Might or the preexisting Aegis
level. I think the rules regarding Wards on ArM5E page 114 and the explicit
equivalence of Aegis to Parma Magica on ArM5E page 161 establish the idea
that both provide a Magic Resistance to the target equal to the level of the
spell, albeit one possibly aligned against a specific source.

Now if I'm reading those references incorrectly, I welcome the
clarification, preferably with supporting quotation. Specifically, I would
respectfully ask Dave Chart to explain how the rules on 114 and the
equivalence of Aegis to Parma on 161are obviated to require a Penetration
Total. It's one thing to state it as Fiat Editor, another entirely to show
support within the provided rules framework. To me, there doesn't seem to be
an issue here, the rules spell the matter out pretty well. ;) In my humble
opinion I don't think it came up in playtesting because it's quite
functional as written.

thanks, and I look forward to the response.

-Ben McFarland

Latest position on the Berklist...


Given that we had a rather active thread on wards recently, I thought it
would be good to add the conclusions to the FAQ.  Basically I am
thinking of just pasting David's response into the FAQ:

Q: Do wards have to penetrate Magic Resistance in order to be effective?

A:
As the rules stand, neither Wards nor Aegis are given special exceptions
from the rules, so both have to penetrate Magic Resistance, just like
any other spell.

It is, to say the least, unclear that this is actually the best way to
handle them, particularly Aegis. I would House Rule that Aegis, at
least, does not have to penetrate (it's a Breakthrough, it's Special).

For other Wards, I'm much less sure about how they should work. It's
true that the current rules mean you need double the creature's Might in
casting total to ward against it, but that's entirely consistent with
the ArM5 boost to the value of Might. It has always previously been the
case that instant kill and ward have been the same level for magical
creatures, because Penetration always used to be at least equal to level
(or at least within ten of it).

I think it's clear that Wards *should* be resisted. Analogous PeCo
"Everyone who enters this circle dies" effects would have to penetrate,
after all. While you can't walk through a wall, even if it doesn't
penetrate, there is nothing there in the case of the Ward; you are being
stopped by a magical effect on you, not by a physical thing that
happened to be created magically.

The question then becomes whether something should be done to the
guidelines to make Wards more effective. Say, they Ward up to twice
their level, or Warding just takes a fixed level spell, and simply has
to penetrate. Or, of course, leave things as they are on the basis that
it fits with the rest of the system.

In the case of the Aegis, it might be better to say that it needs to
penetrate, but subtracts its full level from Casting Totals and wards up
to twice its level in Might, or something similar. (Of course, if Aegis
needs to penetrate, then Resistance Mastery in Aegis would be quite
useful for magi...)

This goes beyond errata, however. It didn't come up in the year of
playtest, which isn't that surprising as it's taken over a year to come
up after release.

-- David Chart
Ars Magica Line Editor

------
Andrew Gronosky
ArM Code 1.5 5+ Ca+ R+ H++ L G++ Y89 T SG+ P HoH(Ty+, F+, B++, Ma-,
D--), FZ(E)++, C++ :-| Cd

Whoops - wasn't signed on --OldNick\\^Talk 09:43, 3 May 2006 (PDT)

Rules : Wards must penetrate

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Current revision as of 20:37, 4 May 2006

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