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| | <b>Martial</b>:<br> | | <b>Martial</b>:<br> |
| | Bow (Recurve): 4 (50)<br> | | Bow (Recurve): 4 (50)<br> |
| - | Single Weapon (longsword and shield): 5 (75)<br> | + | Single Weapon (sword and shield): 5 (75)<br> |
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| | ==Combat Information== | | ==Combat Information== |
| | Burden=9, Encumbrance=1<br> | | Burden=9, Encumbrance=1<br> |
| | <b>Armor</b>: Partial chainmail suit; Soak=8<br> | | <b>Armor</b>: Partial chainmail suit; Soak=8<br> |
| - | <b>Specially crafted recurve bow</b>: Init: -2, Atk: +12, Dfn: +6, Dmg: +9<br> | + | <b>Recurve bow</b>: Base Init: -2, Atk: +12, Dfn: +6, Dmg: +10, Range:30, Load:2<br> |
| - | <b>Longsword and heater shield</b>: Init: +2, Atk: +13, Dfn: +11, Dmg: +7<br> | + | <b>Arming sword and heater shield</b>: Init: +2, Atk: +13, Dfn: +11, Dmg: +7<br> |
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| | ---- | | ---- |
| - | ===Approval==== | + | ===Approval=== |
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| - | * Please see Virtues section.
| + | Providing Perikles is happy that you have satisfied his brief, then this character is approved. |
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| - | ** Privileged Upbringing allows access to Martial abilities as well. I chose that instead of Warrior because the latter's description seems to indicate actual battle experience, and Lily should be very, very green. (She's going to have a severe crisis of faith the first time she kills someone.)
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| - | ===Weaponry Debate ===
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| - | === Longsword/Shortsword ===
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| - | ''--I picked longsword for two reasons. First, I thought that a master-at-arms of a noble house would most likely be a longsword specialist.''
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| - | * Lily doesn't require the services of a specialist, and there is no reason why she can't recieve the same training as the soldier grogs. The only question, is whether or not she'd actually get trained as well as them, which is a factor of her gender and the intention behind her training.
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| - | ** What I meant is that the master-at-arms of her husband's house would be best with the longsword. He may very well have started her on a shortsword but I think she would have wanted to move to something with better range-- because she necessarily has to think a bit like I do, and my biggest "shortcoming" in any fight is range, pun intended. (It's why I'm so fond of the bo and kwandao.) While Great Weapon seems like the best way Lily would pursue that, I don't really like the idea of her swinging around a claymore or a giant axe. While they look cool and everything, I can't see the master-at-arms of a noble house putting anything in her hands that's bigger than she is. She's to have become trained in martial weaponry to protect herself from future attacks, so said master-at-arms would necessarily focus her training on weapons best suited for defense. The first thing he would have done in training would be to hand her a heater shield and say, "Here, can you hold this? Good!"
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| - | * The soldier grogs won't recieve training in Longsword or Longbow, though that does mean they will be more useful.
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| - | ** I had the impression that receiving training alongside common soldiers would be unseemly. Lily would prefer to learn alongside other soldiers, but she also doesn't want it largely known that she can defend herself.
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| - | ''Secondly, the longsword is a "better" weapon, so it seemed the most likely choice for someone who can afford it.''
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| - | * It's a different weapon. The Romans could have chosen any sword, but they chose the Gladius. They could attack without smashing their neighbour in the face. The numbers do not reflect the difficulties of use - you'll have trouble using a Longsword indoors; you'll have trouble using a shortsword from horseback.
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| - | ** At the start of the campaign, she won't ever have fought either indoors or on horseback. Horseback fighting is not something she knows how to do; whether or not she becomes interested in training in the future depends on how gameplay works out.
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| - | '' I would prefer to have her use a weapon more like a rapier-- a lighter, faster weapon, less likely to hack through armor, but more likely to be poked into chinks in armor (through the visor of a helm, a weak spot in one's gorget, etc). Unfortunately we're about three hundred years too early for that.''
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| - | * The shortsword is a lighter, faster weapon.
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| - | ** A lot of weapons are lighter and faster. What would a broadsword be?
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| - | ==== Longbows ====
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| - | ''Saying that she's not strong enough to draw a man's longbow because she's female,''
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| - | I said that I did not believe <b>Lily</b> could draw a man's longbow. By man's longbow, I clearly mean a standard military longbow, or a typical man's longbow. There is no such thing as a standard or typical woman's longbow in this era.
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| - | When Perikles posted his brief, I actually had a woman with a longbow and shortsword in mind, but then she was a fighter, and not a gifted academic.
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| - | I have taken the liberty of deleting all your comments about women-in-general from the rest of this conversation, in order to make it easier to read and reply to.
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| - | ''despite that she has the requisite strength (+2), indicates a belief that women are always inherently less strong than men.''
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| - | * Another assumption. My belief, based on personal experience, scholarly accounts, and the Ars Magica Core, is that no human with +2 strength can draw a longbow. Strength +2 is the minimum strength required to begin training, and after many years of training, the aspiring archer trains his body to be able to pull the string back, but this strength only really applies to draw a bow, and is not suitable to be represented by an increase in general strength.
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| - | ''I agree that the longbow is fantastically difficult to be able to use. To represent that, ArM5 says that a character must have at least +2 strength to be physically capable of using one. My character has a +2 strength, which I will agree is uncommon for a female.''
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| - | * ARM5 states +2 strength, and many years of training to be able to use it. - just like real life.
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| - | ** Yep, and 50-75 experience points _is_ many years of training. Anyway, I've changed the description of the bow (though I don't know whether it's an anachronism or not); so long as female characters aren't going to be getting higher Ease Factors than male characters because of the "genetic predispositions" I'm content.
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| - | ''If you'll examine the weapon tables on pages 176 and 177, the Strength requirement states: "The minimum strength score needed to use the weapon."''
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| - | *<b>Bow, Long:</b> The famous English longbow, which equally famously required years of training and physical conditioning to use.
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| - | :We are talking about the kind of training that a noble woman would have great difficulty justifying, and even if she did manage it, she's going to end up being treated like "Briene".
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| - | ** George created Brienne because he was sick to death of Red Sonja type characters-- females who were tiny, busty, and scantily clad, charging into battle against foes who were bigger, stronger, and better armored than they were. In ArM terms, Brienne would be Large, arguably maybe even Giant-Blooded (though not on the same level with Gregor Clegane); +4 stamina and possibly up to +3 strength, and a -3 (or worse) Presence. She'd be wearing plate armor, which isn't even around in the 13th century. Brienne's treated badly because she's hideous, and she intimidates men because she's bigger and stronger than most of them are. (I'm so looking forward to seeing her beat the crap out of Lord Tarly.) Lily's nowhere near as large or powerful as Brienne is, and isn't quite as ugly. (True to George's many rantings on warrior-women, I've described Lily as "handsome rather than pretty" and her aptitude for martial studies is based on coordination rather than physical strength... Brienne would kick her ass three ways from Sunday.) I don't remember Brienne ever trying to use a bow, though... She'd be more likely to snap the thing in half than draw it successfully :P
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| - | ''Ruling that Lily can't use a longbow because she's not dedicated enough of her life to physical conditioning; that's fine.''
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| - | * Well, this is moving into the realm of the character brief, and so shall have to wait until Perikles is available for comment.
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| - | ''Lily *is* heavily focused on study. If you would like me to drop her strength score to reflect that, and use weapons modified to cater to that.''
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| - | * I think she is much better off with a shortbow, as it means her arms will be the same length, and she can better perform her role as a martial companion to Mnemosyne, as she'll have a weapon suited for skirmishes and ambushes that she can readily travel with.
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| - | ** She wouldn't use a bow in a skirmish unless she's far removed from where the fighting is taking place. I really hate seeing movies with these super "combat archers" running in and out of melee *cough*PeterJackson*cough*. The times Lily will use a bow are in controlled situations; she might stick a few arrows in the ground in front of her, and shoot carefully while opponents are running up from some distance, but that's the closest to "skirmishing" with it as she should ever get. I'd like for her to be able to shoot a duck out of the air, as well, though I don't know if that would be longbow or shortbow.
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| - | <i>Lily doesn't get out and plow fields or swing a blacksmith's hammer, so I can see her being limited to a max of +1 strength. I just really wanted to use a longbow because none of my ArM characters have ever had any bow skill, and I wanted to play with a longbow.</i>
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| - | * Well, if that's the case, you can always change Lily. I don't mind how much you fiddle with your character prior to final approval, though once it is approved, I'd prefer it if it didn't change in any significant way.
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| - | ** I've changed the descriptions of the bow, as it was your rationale of female characteristics representing lesser ability than the same characteristics in a male that bothered me, not the thought of using a different bow.
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| - | ==Notes about the Character==
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| - | <small>Stuck here temporarily.</small>
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| - | ====Manor/Fief====
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| - | I'm willing to try the Noble virtues as you have them, and see where it goes. I'll sort her out with a primary manor, upon which her steward can be overseeing the construction of a fortified manor house, or similarly expensive building (such as a tower, planter's castle, etc.) Though you may well have two manors, I'd rather leave the second one undetailed for now, and if for any reason we need to introduce it, we can do so with the benefit of having had the setting fleshed out. I'll check out Stokesay at some point before the saga begins.
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| - | ====Servants====
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| - | * Man-at-arms - The 'Standard Soldier', page 22, Ars Magica 5th Ed. Core Rules.
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| - | * Lady-in-waiting
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| - | * Lady-in-waiting
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| - | The man-at-arms is just a random guard who has managed to appear to his superiors to be sufficiently reliable, and capable on the road, that he has been picked to accompany her ladyship. Lily was trained by an entirely different person, who has a somewhat unusual view of the role of women in society. Lily trained with him while an older, and trusted, female servant looked on, thus gaining the benefits of one-on-one training and a distinct lack of unpleasant gossip about her fitness for marriage (she lacks the reputation 'tom-boy', or similar...)
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| - | The decision to train Lily in martial abilities is a good source of background and story... without checking your background (I'm leaving momentarily) I'd assume it was made by her father, and that it was his authority which saw it was done, and done discreetly. Perhaps some nearby manors had been attacked by the Welsh (or he had some vague forewarning of the attack that killed him), and the horrible aftermath made her father (who was often seperated from his daughter due to having more than one fief) fear terribly for her safety.
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| - | These two young ladies in waiting have stereotypical skill-sets. I'll draw up the character sheet in concert with the two players I have in mind... :D They have been carefully tutored prior to recently entering Lily's service.
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| - | * I would like it if one of those ladies-in-waiting (who in the background I've named "Bronwyn" for lack of any good names) was paying far more attention than she let on, to the lessons of her tutor. Someone smart and discreet, who can be a close friend and confidante for Lily.
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| - | nb. Lily has other servants that she may send for, and these will be determined when she has need of them. All her grogs will be played by other players, and their personalities will thus be set by the writing style, etc. of the player. Feel free to make some suggestions though.
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| - | ====Education====
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| - | <i>House Jerbiton has set up a small number of academic schools where ladies may study mundane subjects, and this could work well for Lilly.</i>
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| - | --I could see the girlhood friend of a Quaesitor being able to get into one of those schools, although I'd have to re-think how Lily and Mnem met, then.
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| - | House Jerbiton is a good reason for Lily to have a non-church inspired view of gender roles. A church education will just drive the stake deeper.
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| - | * As her background is written now, she's had both. She started in the Jerbiton school as a young girl, continued through her marriage as her husband indulged her. After his death, she went travelling for a while, taking with her a church-provided tutor.
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| - | - That sounds good. :D
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| - | ====Gender Issues====
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| - | * I'm investigating the gender issues, but they could be quite severe for someone of her class, compared with, say, the grogs...
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| - | > Yes. She should have very little respect from her peers; other nobles should be polite, kind insofar as they're trying to convince her to marry them or their sons, but otherwise disdainful. She should be viewed by other nobles as being a bit of a willful child, and honestly, she pretty much is. She's more concerned with her own fun, and she doesn't realize yet that in order to really protect the people she cares about so much, she *needs* to go out and find a good husband who she might be able to convince to act in their interest. Possible adventures I was anticipating would be scenarios in which she would become painfully aware of just how horribly the commonfolk are being treated by the royal armies marching through on their way to and from Wales; she tries to fix the situation but is utterly stymied, rinse-lather-repeat until she wises up and resigns herself to having to marry some soft-hearted chump. Then going off to seek out said soft-hearted chump. Hilarity ensues.
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| - | The reaction would be that, while it's unseemly for the times, Our Father Who Art In Heaven clearly has some plan for her, and they would really prefer that whenever the time comes 'round for whatever that is, she's as inclined towards the church as possible. So long as she remains discreet about being educated, they're willing to accomodate her odd requests. When you control what someone knows, you have enormous power over them
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| - | (yet another reason for Lily to become quite fond of the magi, and for that to cause conflict with the church); the clergy's feelings for her should be about 50/50 between genuine respect and their desire to have influence over her. This could be slanted more towards the genuine respect if you're less cynical about the church than I am. (I grew up in Catholic school as a "precocious" child, and having had no small amount of "friendly debates" with priests over the natures of worship, sin, and forgiveness.) Her education would be, of course, facilitated in no small part by the Wealth virtue, as she'd be giving generously to the Church to "prove" her gratefulness.
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Providing Perikles is happy that you have satisfied his brief, then this character is approved.
