User talk:Harpier

From Tokaia

.Hey JohnFaa, it's Venatosaurus. So I guess I'm going to help with your project, and come up with new concepts for the project, as well as update some of your old dinosaur concepts. I hope this is where I'm supposed to post my ideas,like you said earlier ?!  :D

.Yes, you post your ideas here ~JohnFaa

.Okay so I have an idea which I thought about too, but never really conceptualized it. So here it is ... some dinosaurs created by dracontes from deviantart. First is a Dinosaurian Gibbon http://dracontes.deviantart.com/art/Dinosaurian-Gibbon-Concept-16196543

And quadrapedal maniraptorians http://dracontes.deviantart.com/art/Quadrupedal-Maniraptoran-16193810

Now either we ask permission to use these concepts, or something similar to them, or we ask dracontes to join us! ;)

.Maybe... JohnFaa

.I came up with the idea of a group of Ornithomimids that have taken over the niche of the extinct Therizinosaurs, some of which have survived and evolved to fill other roles which will be explained later (The Therizinosaurs I mean), and now are larger and have a single large, sycthe-like claw (some subspecies retain a small second finger). They also have two toes on each foot, resembling that of RE's ostrich. There are also other physiological changes , but those can be discussed later. I've also been playing with the possibility of flying rats ( similar to those from King Kong),some of which are quite large and have an 8-10 ft wingspan.As well as some ungulate-like ceratopsids, that have slim,nimble,and gracile bodies, many running grazers and others mountain dwellers. Do you have any other ideas, or are you going to be more preoccupied with Terra Alternativa, cause I hope we can get this going soon.

.Well, the ornithomimids could take the niches of therizinosaurs, although I doubt they would have a single claw; most likely they would retain all claws. As for for ungulate like ceratopsids, then no, because hadrosaurs and other ornithopods are more likely to fill those niches, although protoceratopsids that behave like pigs, and even carnivorous forms (they were omnivores, so some could develop scavanging species that could occasionally go after living prey) are likely to develop. As for flying rats, I would prefer flying multituberculates - JohnFaa

.Oh I was really rooting for the gazelle-like ceratopsids, unless the ceratopsids live in a different region than the hadrosaurs, maybe areas similar to the Himalayas, and maybe they could live beside some of these hadrosaurs, similar to how different ungulates co-exist today. As for the ornithomimids, what if they had a much larger middle finger, dubbing them the name "Cussers" . And I think pig-like protoceratopsids would be excellent. I also have in mind North American ceratopsids, that developed a "coat" of woolly feathers, to protect from the cold, something extremely useful during the Ice Age. As for the flying multituberculates, I think that could do, ooh this'll be just as interesting as Spec !

.As a whole I don't see ceratopsids becoming gazelle like, although some mountain dwelling species could occupy the niches of mountain goats and such; its just that ornithopods were already very diverse and they can more easily develop fast antelope-like forms; plus, there were several maniraptors (like ornithomimids and appearently also oviraptors and troodontids) that could feed on vegetation, plus herbivore mammals. Though ceratopsids could still occupy the niches of large herbivores like rhinos and elephants, plus pig and perhaps hyena sort of niches. Given the fact that nearly all sauropods became extinct, I also like the idea of your large browsing therizinosaur like ornithomimids, both in tropical and colder areas. JohnFaa

.Thanks JohnFaa, when I said ungulate-like ceratopsids, I meant them as being mountain goat-like. Of course there were ornithopods that could easily develop into antelope-like forms, and many do so. I also like the idea of a hyena-like ceratopsid, but what about an oviraptor taking up a niche like that. I've also taken into consideration a sauropod-like hadrosaur that evolved in Africa, and some eventually migrate towards Asia, maybe even Europe. I've also had ideas about a stegosaur that survived beyond the Cretaceous, possibly into the present. Although I think this'd be unlikely, I've also played around with the idea of some tyrannosaurids redeveloping longer arms, but their jaws grew smaller, this was due to the fact they have evolved in more vegetated areas, and had to compensate for this. Some tell me what you think about these ideas, and we'll take it from there. Oh and how diverse would the flying "rats" ;) be ,I was thinking of them being larger than our worlds bats, maybe the the average size about a flying fox ? What about insects, would it be plausible as having them as grotesque as the ones in King Kong ( although I'm sure they'd be smaller)?

.Given the fact that modern bears and boars share the large omnivore niches, then scavenging ceratopsidians and oviraptors might co-exist. Tyrannosaurids would most likely loose the arms at this point, and stegosaurs would not be alive nowdays. The giant insects are also impossible. Otherwise, everything's fine ;) JohnFaa

.Excellent. Obviously giant insects are impossible, the level of oxygen would have to be much higher,for insects to achieve that size. I also like the idea of scavenging ceratopsidians and oviraptors sharing the same niche, very creative. Unfortunately I would have liked the idea of a group of Tyrannosaurids, re-developing longer grasping arms. Couldn't this have happened if their jaw sizes decreased, I thought their jaw and arm genes were supposedly interlinked. I was thinking they would have developed this in a highly vegetated jungle, where their body and jaw sizes decreased, and longer arms were and advantage. Oh well, I also had in mind a group of mammals in Madagascar , as well as other places such as Africa and Asia,known as "False Lemurs" (although the entire group is known as "False Primates"). They aren't true primates,although many resemble Plesiadapis,and RE's Lorises and Tarsiers. These animals are pouched mammals, and very intelligent(not as intelligent as our primates,but still highly intelligent). There are many species,especially in Madagascar, where some are carnivorous, and known as "Tree Foxes". On a side note, would large flightless birds fit into this project as well?

Tyrannosaurids can't really redevelop their arms; when an animal is very specialized, it can't revert, and thats why birds can't redevelop dinosaurian hands (though they can develop claws in the wings) and tail, while tyrannosaurids can't develop long arms again (in any case, those species would be outcompeted by dromaeosaurs and other maniraptors). While true primates didn't evolved in the Cretaceous, the closely related plesiadaptiformes were already present, and if any major tree dweeling group evolved it would be from them. As for flightless birds, I was thinking of ratites in New Zealand, New Caledonia, Madagascar and Australia, though elsewhere maniraptor dinosaurs would replace them. While hesperornithes would be extinct at this point, penguins would be present, since they already evolved in the Cretaceous period, and since they probably were still able to fly at that time maybe some flying species might had crossed the tropics and ended up in the northern hemisphere before becoming flightless. I was also thinking of marine, herbivore flightless/almost flightless sea ducks. ~JohnFaa

. Oh my goodness, completely forgot about the plesiadapiformes, I even mentioned Plesiadapis too. They still wouldn't be true primates, and I'm sure they were placentals, so forget the whole pouched business. As for the Tyrannosaurids, you are right they most likely couldn't re-develop longer arms, although it would have been interesting to see some thing like this. I also like your idea of a flightless duck, and if there were any other flightless birds they probably be smaller , reminscent of Patagopteryx. Flightless birds wouldn't be as diverse as in RE, because of the fact that else where there are flightless pterosaurs. We should also discuss the different species of the flying multituberculates , the Flying "Rats" !

If you don't mind, I would prefer to make the flying "rats" descendents of Volaticotherium ~JohnFaa

.Oh , that'd be interesting too , and they're not closely related to any other mammalian group currently known, so we can make them a bit more unique. But, since they lived so early , would they have evolved flight before the end of the Cretaceous?

Probably; there's few preserved mammal fossils from the Cretaceous period, so its a possibility. JohnFaa

.Cool. I also mentioned it earlier at SE, about the South American Tyrannosaurids. I imagine them being heavily plumaged, with feathers covering most of their small bodies(about the size of an ostrich), which are colored yellow and have black spots on them. Like the "Curriculusaurs" or "Cirriculumimes"(another branch or ornithomimids,bad names I know)their middle toe digit is elongated and bears much of the weight while locomoting. Their arms have reduced in size and reduced to one clawed digit. Males often travel in small groups of 2-4, while females travel in groups of 5-7.Although they are carnivorous , they are not naturally aggressive , due to the fact they are smaller and more frail than other predators, and are just as content to scavenge carcasses.

Okay; just make sure the tyrannosaurids aren't too similar to Spec's cazadins (perhaps making them still have three toes is enough). I think all ornithomimids should be feathered, seeing that most coelosaurs had feathers; a possible exception are large species that live in the tropics, which have feathers mainly in the arms an tail, and that use them as display devices. I was also considering the fate of abeliosaurs; true abelisosaurs could still exist in Africa and India, while the smaller noasaurids would be dominant in Madagascar and they would be reduced to a few species in South America, due to competion from northern predators like tyrannosaurids and dromeosaurs. In Australia we could have perhaps surviving allosaurs in the forests, with unenlagine dromeosaurs and predatory mammals in the arid regions. JonhFaa

.Excellent ideas JohnFaa, and yes the Ornithomimds were intended to have feathers. I also like your idea of the surviving allosauroid, wasn't there a species that survived in the Cretaceous? I also plan on making the tyrannosaurids different from the cazadin's , just to let you know. I also want to start discussing the sauropod-like hadrosaurs. Another question that I should bring up, which dinosaur groups went extinct, although I plan on having the Sauropods die out, which other's will most likely be gone ?

Pachycephalosaurs, large ceratopsids (all modern species descend from Protoceratops and kin), most hadrosaurs (the species in my gallery at DA are all derived from gondwannan hadrosaurs known from Cretaceous Antartica, which invaded Eurasia from Africa in the Miocene; the sauropod hadrosaurs are the last "old hadrosaurs", and even those came from India in the Eocene, and outcompeted the previous hadrosaurs; in South America, several hadrosaurs exist as well, although those came from North America in the Pliocene), ankylosaurs and nearly all troodontids (except a linage that develop flight) are the dinosaurs that are gone, plus linages already extinct in the Late Cretaceous (spinosaurids, carcharodontosaurids, stegosaurids, etc.) ~JohnFaa

.Wow, that is a long list, but good non-theless. So the Ceratopsians in the "present", must come from the clade Leptoceratopsidae. It's possible that many larger forms come from Udanoceratops, while in North America ,Montanoceratops takes over the niches left by the giant Ceratopsids. Seeing as the troodontids also became extinct,would it be possible for mammals to take over their ecological niche , or would that be left up to the dromeosaurs ? I also see that hypsilophodontids aren't extinct, so I'm wondering if they could develop large quadrapedal forms, in addition to their already existing small bipedal forms ? Now on to mammals... earlier I mentioned Indohyus being the ancestor to many groups of mammals, including whales, ungulates, and hooved carnivores. I guess we should discuss what they could look like, and where they would live.

Edit: I'd actually like to see Dromeosaurs fill the Troodontids niche, developing gangly, gracile forms.

Well, regarding hypsilophodonts, maybe new linages of hadrosaur-like ornithopods could end up replacing the true ones; therefore, the african "hadrosaurs" and the australian ornithopods are actually gondwannan ornithopods that evolved from hyspilophodontids, while the sauropod hadrosaurs and the american species are true hadrosaurs. And I think unenlagine dromeosaurs are the most likely to replace them. JohnFaa

. I like that idea , most hadrosaurs have gone extinct, except for the sauropod hadrosaurs, the ones from the Americas. When I say dromeosaurs, I say it in the general term, I guess I should stop that. On another note, what are the "whales" going to look like. Are they more primitive in appearance than our Earth's whales,or are they just as advanced looking. I also have the same questions for the ungulates, but as far as the hooved predators,I already have an idea of what they should look like.

The "whales" are ambulocetus-like, and they are obviously more common in cold seas, were sea reptiles are absent (although a few species colonised warmer waters). And please note the hooved mammals are all omnivores; because of herbivore dinosaurs they didn't specialised very much into the herbivore niches, while the presence of carnivore marsupials and dromeosaurs didn't allowed them to be fully carnivores either. JohnFaa

.Obviously the "whales" will have to have insulating fat, I'm also wondering if the whale species are diverse, or are there only a few species. As for the hooved mammals , in enviornments to extreme for dinosaurs, could they develop more specialized forms? Would scavenging forms for this group also be possible, I was wondering if hyaena-like species could develop somewhere. It'd be interesting to see both carnivorous marsupials and "carnivorous" hooved mammals compete.

I'll move the scavenging ceratopsids to America, thus leaving Eurasia to the hoofed scavengers. The whales, as I said, are basically seal/sea lion analogues, alongside penguins, so I guess they would be as diverse as seals (which, like them, also have a larger concentration of species in the polar waters). JohnFaa

.I like that much more since the Artiodactyla order, will start in Asia ( Indohyus) and they'll obviously play a larger role than in most other places. It'd also make sense in the fact that the remaining Ceratopsids in North America are rather smaller (Leptoceratopsidae) when compared to other animals , and probably played a similar role in the Cretaceous? As for the "whales" in coastal waters , I'm guessing they also look like Ambulocetus . As for a site, will we set up one. If so I think we should try and make one as impressive as Nemo's site. I also came up with the idea for an intro movie with this song... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Cj7UXo370Q or this one.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsScZOqj_x4 I prefer the first one though... It meshes well with our theme.

I'm not too worried about the video, but I agree that we must have a proper site. JohnFaa

. Are you a good site designer, as far as the video, it could be just an asteroid colliding with Earth (find footage from a movie for that) and then show in King Kong like lettering "what if ?" and then In big letters fading into WHAT IF WORLD, with the music from King Kong. I also drew up one of the "whales" , I call it the Hooded "Whale" an arctic species of "whale"

Good idea for the video. As for the site, well, I'll see what I can do with googlepages or freewebs. Or I'll try wikispaces once more. You know who

.Hey JohnFaa/Harpier, I've got some fantastic ideas. So, not so long ago I read that there was fossil evidence that reveals that a dicynodont inhabited Australia as recently as the Early Cretaceous. Could a dicynodont fit into the project , it's possible that they survived further into the Cretaceous, and survive to present-day in WIW. This group could be Australia's analog to Ceratopians. I was also inspired by, "The World of Kong: A Natural History of Skull Island" , to possibly include a group of flying cynodonts. In the book it's known as a "Pugbat", but I think it's totally possible to include it in the project. So lets go back we have Flying "Rats", Birds, Flying Troodontids, and possibly Flying Cynodonts. I also would like to know if gliding lizards could be included, either developing a gliding membrane similar to our Earth's Dracos, or developing elongated, feather-like scales. Please let me know what you think of all of these suggestions. - Venatosaurus

I think I'll replace flying troodontids with flying dromeosaurs though. And flying lizards would probably look the same as in our world. You know who

.Excellent, like the original proposal. So as you said earlier, I guess we should sort the animals into certain biomes, and come up with new ones for those enviornments. So with that ... TROPICAL DECIDUOUS RAIN FORESTS OF NEW ZEALAND .Dicynodonts .Flightless Terrasaurs .Flying Cynodonts .Giant Tuataras .Rahonavid Dromeosaurs ... I guess well have to come up with other groups of animals, as well as specific species, for this and all other enviornments !

I know. JohnFaa

Creating Stub Pages

Could I make a pages for things like Dinosauria and Lepidosauria and leave them stubs, for later expansion.